The best DEs I could find still avaible not named Hardy

Stash

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We were okay on defense last year with basically this same team, why do you want to be overly pessimistic about everything?

We got by. And last I checked, we've lost several players from even that unit. For the record, I'm not being pessimistic, I'm being realistic. Everything I'm saying is based on fact, not fandom.

Melton is gone, Carter is gone, Durant is gone, Moore has not been re-signed, McClain has not been re-signed , and even Spenecr may not be back, and nobody has been brought in to help fix the pass rush. Is any part of this statement inaccurate?
 

davey999

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2014 Cowboys that started their career with the Cowboys: our entire starting offense (was originally going to make a list... but... really... it's just everyone including most of the backups), Lawerence, Crawford, Spencer, Lee, Hitchens, Carter, Wilcox, Church, Scandrick, and yes Mo.

2014 Cowboys that started off somewhere else: Mincey, McClain, Melton, Durant, Carr.


We turned that into a 12-4 team, and of 3 (or 4 depending on how you feel about Melton) of the 5 guys in the second list were small, short contracts to players that they thought might work out well. Look at most elite teams and you will see something like this (yes the Seahawks did pay a bit for Avril and Bennett, and the Pats got Revis to a 1 year contract, but that seems to generally be the exception rather than the rule with those teams). That is why I say build through the draft.

Our defence lost some key depth, we lost a core special teams player and the offensive MVP.

Right now we aren't as good as last year. How you can argue that is beyond me.
 

Stash

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Our defence lost some key depth, we lost a core special teams player and the offensive MVP.

Right now we aren't as good as last year. How you can argue that is beyond me.

He can't.

Not a leg to stand on.

It's just yet another fan thinking that if they hope strong enough, everything will be OK.
 

endersdragon

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We got by. And last I checked, we've lost several players from even that unit. For the record, I'm not being pessimistic, I'm being realistic. Everything I'm saying is based on fact, not fandom.

Melton is gone, Carter is gone, Durant is gone, Moore has not been re-signed, McClain has not been re-signed , and even Spenecr may not be back, and nobody has been brought in to help fix the pass rush. Is any part of this statement inaccurate?

What was your prediction for how we would finish the year last year? Furthermore which of those guys were elite free agents that were signed before the 4th day of free agency. Spencer, Melton, and McClain were all signed after the draft. Moore was an undrafted free agent. Durant was a guy most here didn't want and still was a 2nd tier guy. Carter was drafted by us and his replacement (Hitchens) probably was as well. We can find replacements for each and every one of these guys.
 

boysfanindc

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Based on Spencer's 0 sacks last year and the fact that rookies don't put up sacks?

Sorry if I sound harsh but that's simply a fan hoping and praying with nothing based in reality.

Harsh? I have seen you be much harsher.

Part hope part realistic, Spencer was starting to come on towards the end of the year, Big OO would give us some reps and some production. We are not getting Hardy or any big dollar DE (which is ok by me) as long as we get some production from SDE.

Could we get better production from SDE then last year with:

Spencer (healthy)
OO
Gardner
??

Or are we just screwed beyond belief?

I think there is a path, 3 days into free agency with out paying someone Mills.
 

davey999

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He can't.

Not a leg to stand on.

It's just yet another fan thinking that if they hope strong enough, everything will be OK.

Any non biased observer agrees. Yes we have time and the draft but unfortunately so does everyone else.
 

Stash

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What was your prediction for how we would finish the year last year?

I'll be perfectly honest. 6-10. Yours was likely 16-0 based on this conversation.

Furthermore which of those guys were elite free agents that were signed before the 4th day of free agency. Spencer, Melton, and McClain were both signed after the draft. Moore was an undrafted free agent. Durant was a guy most here didn't want and still was a 2nd tier guy. Carter (Hitchens) was drafted by us and his replacement probably was as well. We can find replacements for each and every one of these guys.

Where? That same inaccurate list you gave us before? And will be just as unable to get to opposing quarterbacks as we were last year? Yay! We've obviously got nothing to worry about.
 

Stash

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Any non biased observer agrees. Yes we have time and the draft but unfortunately so does everyone else.

Even if we have the draft, it's well known to anyone who bothers to look it up, rookie defensive ends don't put up big sack numbers, even the great ones. So even if we were fortunate enough to get a JJ Watt at # 27, we'd be looking at 5.5 sacks.
 

Stash

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Harsh? I have seen you be much harsher.

Part hope part realistic, Spencer was starting to come on towards the end of the year, Big OO would give us some reps and some production. We are not getting Hardy or any big dollar DE (which is ok by me) as long as we get some production from SDE.

Could we get better production from SDE then last year with:

Spencer (healthy)
OO
Gardner
??

Or are we just screwed beyond belief?

I think there is a path, 3 days into free agency with out paying someone Mills.

Spencer looked better, but it was still 0 sacks. You're counting on Gardner, a guy who missed just about the entire season last year. Think about that. And the. Add a rookie to the mix when it's an established fact that they don't contribute immediately.

It sounds like just plain hope to me.
 

endersdragon

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I'll be perfectly honest. 6-10. Yours was likely 16-0 based on this conversation.



Where? That same inaccurate list you gave us before? And will be just as unable to get to opposing quarterbacks as we were last year? Yay! We've obviously got nothing to worry about.

This list was totally accurate, last time I will admit I kept Clayborn on it, my bad, will you stop harping on it? Beyond that http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/849/john-abraham still 50-50, depending on if he draws interest, but is still planning to play and if we sign him... guess what... that means we are interested.

Mine was 10-6, pretty close to accurate I would say. But yes, I think we can find a replacement for Spencers 0 sacks, McClains concussions, and Moore's subpar play in free agency (Durant and Melton don't count because we weren't using them at all at the end of last season)
 

Stash

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This list was totally accurate, last time I will admit I kept Clayborn on it, my bad, will you stop harping on it? Beyond that http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/849/john-abraham still 50-50, depending on if he draws interest, but is still planning to play and if we sign him... guess what... that means we are interested.

Mine was 10-6, pretty close to accurate I would say. But yes, I think we can find a replacement for Spencers 0 sacks, McClains concussions, and Moore's subpar play in free agency (Durant and Melton don't count because we weren't using them at all at the end of last season)

Forget this, it's not worth the effort, you make up whatever reality that helps you sleep at night, thinking it will be all right for your favorite team. Bring up whatever retired players you think might come back, and downplay all the player losses you want. Ignore facts, information and the rest of reality if that's what you need to do. Just don't force anyone else to read the nonsense.
 

endersdragon

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Forget this, it's not worth the effort, you make up whatever reality that helps you sleep at night, thinking it will be all right for your favorite team. Bring up whatever retired players you think might come back, and downplay all the player losses you want. Ignore facts, information and the rest of reality if that's what you need to do. Just don't force anyone else to read the nonsense.

Please show me one credible source, just one, that quotes John Abraham as saying, "I am retiring from the game of football". You said it yourself, the guys we lost last year sucked last year outside of McClain who I am sure you were all for us signing him (when did that happen again)?. And I didn't force your dumb*** to read anything, you choose to, so good ****ing riddance.
 

boysfanindc

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Spencer looked better, but it was still 0 sacks. You're counting on Gardner, a guy who missed just about the entire season last year. Think about that. And the. Add a rookie to the mix when it's an established fact that they don't contribute immediately.

It sounds like just plain hope to me.

We knew Gardner had injury problems, or he would have gone much higher in the draft, maybe before Murphy who played well for the Skins.

Spencer was not even ready to play until late and started to come on.

OO could also give us some quality reps.

I prefer to think of it as a calculated risk with potential upside, we don't need much upside for it to be better then last year.

Could I be wrong? Sure I could be, call me crazy ( and I would not have said this 3 years ago) but the FO has been hitting more then they have been missing lately.

And this seems to be the plan.
 

endersdragon

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We knew Gardner had injury problems, or he would have gone much higher in the draft, maybe before Murphy who played well for the Skins.

Spencer was not even ready to play until late and started to come on.

OO could also give us some quality reps.

I prefer to think of it as a calculated risk with potential upside, we don't need much upside for it to be better then last year.

Could I be wrong? Sure I could be, call me crazy ( and I would not have said this 3 years ago) but the FO has been hitting more then they have been missing lately.

And this seems to be the plan.

Give up... he wants to see nothing but gray clouds so he can come back at the end of the year when we lose our last game (whenever that last game may be) and say "I told you so" because he knows there is a 31/32 chance of him being right.
 

Stash

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We knew Gardner had injury problems, or he would have gone much higher in the draft, maybe before Murphy who played well for the Skins.

Spencer was not even ready to play until late and started to come on.

OO could also give us some quality reps.

I prefer to think of it as a calculated risk with potential upside, we don't need much upside for it to be better then last year.

Could I be wrong? Sure I could be, call me crazy ( and I would not have said this 3 years ago) but the FO has been hitting more then they have been missing lately.

And this seems to be the plan.

I don't think they have a choice but for it to be the plan now.

That 'ol well's done dried up!
 

Stash

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Give up... he wants to see nothing but gray clouds so he can come back at the end of the year when we lose our last game (whenever that last game may be) and say "I told you so" because he knows there is a 31/32 chance of him being right.

"The sun'll some out, tomorrow..."
 

endersdragon

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Ahhh... so much better ignoring him... so what does everyone else think? LOL
 

yimyammer

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Everyone worries about a bad contract down the road, but a huge hole on the field hurts a lot more. There is risk either way.

Personally, I think its a little more complicated than that.

A bad contract results in a "hole" on the field as well plus you get stuck with that player because he's too expensive to cut (loss of flexibility), cap dollars are lost, it stops the progress of other players and all the risk is placed on one player who having just received a fat contract may not have the same hunger he had when he was striving for that big contract.

Additionally the player a team has to utilize in lieu of the high priced free agent won't be completely worthless (if you're in the NFL, you have some level of talent).

For example, lets say the high price free agent gets assigned a value of 100 on a scale of 0-100 and has reached his ceiling performance-wise and the team hopes it will continue for the duration of his contract. Whereas the player you'd have to settle on if you don't acquire the free agent scores a 70 on the scale but has a contract that can be gotten away from easily, has the potential to improve and frees up additional cap dollars to devote among other players which effectively diversifies the risk and might allow you to improve other areas of the team.

So in my example, the question becomes do you invest in one player to potentially achieve 30 percentage points higher production than the alternative player in exchange for not being able to address other areas with cap dollars saved by not signing the high priced free agent, lose flexibility due to contractual obligations, hinder progress of other players and put all the risk on one high priced free agent.

Perhaps you should, perhaps you shouldn't, these are decisions for the experts but I totally agree, there is risk in either scenario because there are no guarantees in life and especially in the NFL.

The current system, more than any other time in the NFL imo, shows how important it is to build a team that gets contributions from as many players as possible and it seems to me when too many cap dollars are devoted to too few players, success never ensues.

IMHO, it comes down to managements ability to identify, acquire and develop talent and then to creatively and efficiently assign cap dollars to those players. It appears the current staff might be on a roll at doing these very things and success going forward will depend upon this continuing, not making the biggest splashes in free agency.
 

sureletsrace

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I wouldn't mind Michael Johnson on a minimum deal or close to it.

Abraham is old but I'd give him a McFadden type deal.
 

endersdragon

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I wouldn't mind Michael Johnson on a minimum deal or close to it.

Abraham is old but I'd give him a McFadden type deal.

Same here, in both cases incentive laden deal where we tell them exactly what is going to happen before the season begins (Johnson will get a chance everywhere, Abraham will probably be used on a rotational basis on passing downs so we don't wear him down too much but can still get plenty of chances for sacks). Worst comes to worst we aren't out much, best possibility we gain a guy who can put up 10+ sacks.
 
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