The Bucs lone TD

[mrmojo]

Based on the video, they were saying Carr held Evans, so maybe there were multiple holds on the play. During the broadcast, they focused in on Heath and Wilcox, I wasn't aware Carr was doing his own share of holding on the opposite side of the field.

They showed Carr holding also on one of the replays.

 

[Paniolo22]

So why is it that a defensive hold, which is a passing penalty, was enforced at the end of the run? It should have been enforced when the hold took place, not the end of the play.

 

[Kevinicus]

It was the correct call. I think it's kind of dumb though.

FOUL ENFORCEMENT ON RUNNING PLAY WITH POSSESSION CHANGE

Article 13 When a defensive foul occurs during a running play (3-27-2) and the run in which the foul occurs is followed by a change of possession, the spot of enforcement is the spot of the foul and ball reverts to offensive team. See 14-1-12- Exc. 5.

Exceptions: (1) When the spot of a foul is in advance of the spot where the offensive player lost possession, the spot of enforcement is the spot where player possession was lost and the ball reverts to offensive team.​

 

[Kevinicus]

So why is it that a defensive hold, which is a passing penalty, was enforced at the end of the run? It should have been enforced when the hold took place, not the end of the play.

Defensive holding isn't just a passing penalty.

 

[Hoofbite]

Wait.. What?!!! .. So here is the play by play:

(1:07) (Shotgun) 3-J.Winston scrambles up the middle to DAL 1 for 3 yards (26-T.Patmon). FUMBLES (26-T.Patmon), RECOVERED by DAL-90-D.Lawrence at DAL -1. Touchback. PENALTY on DAL-38-J.Heath, Defensive Holding, 0 yards, enforced at DAL 1. Statistically, a rush for 3 yards for Winston.

So what the heck is he talking about with Carr?? So back to reality, they are calling the hold on Heath.. which by rule is a 5 yard foul from the previous spot, It is not a spot of the foul penalty. The ball should have been at the 2 yard line, not the 1 .

You're right. It's an "added to the end of the run" penalty. It is not just 5 yards marked off from the previous spot. It probably seems that way because 99% of defensive holding calls occur with the QB behind the line of scrimmage. It may be applied from the previous spot the majority of the time but that's only because the nature of the play.

From the Seattle game:

3rd & 6 - SEA 41 - Matt Cassel middle for 12 yards (tackle by Kam Chancellor). Penalty on DeShawn Shead: Defensive Holding, 5 yards

1st & 10 - SEA 24 - Darren McFadden pass incomplete short right intended for James Hanna

12 yards on the run, and 5 added for the penalty.

Edit, also, how is it a rush for 3 yards by Wilson.. he fumbled the ball and they did not recover

Because that's how they record the play in the stats. Player is credited for the yardage and the fumble. Just as a player who catches a pass and then fumbles still gets credited for the reception. They credit the advancement of the ball independent of what happens after the advancement.

Unless there some magic turnover rule I am missing where the ball goes back to the spot of the fumble when a defensive penalty occurs I don't know how to explain this.

Fortunately for you that you don't have to. The rule book does in fact explain it for you.

ARTICLE 5. BASIC SPOT. The Basic Spot is a reference point that is used to determine the Spot of Enforcement for fouls committed pursuant to the Three-and-One Method of Enforcement. It is applicable for fouls committed during (i) a running play or (ii) a backward pass or fumble.

(a).....
(b).....
(c) For fouls committed during a backward pass or fumble, the Basic Spot is the spot of the backward pass or the spot of the fumble.​

ARTICLE 6. THREE-AND-ONE METHOD OF ENFORCEMENT. For fouls committed during a run, a fumble or a backward pass, the penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot if:

(a).....
(b) the defense fouls behind the Basic Spot
(c).....​

In short, the penalty was assessed appropriately.

 

[mrmojo]

It was the correct call. I think it's kind of dumb though.

FOUL ENFORCEMENT ON RUNNING PLAY WITH POSSESSION CHANGE

Article 13 When a defensive foul occurs during a running play (3-27-2) and the run in which the foul occurs is followed by a change of possession, the spot of enforcement is the spot of the foul and ball reverts to offensive team. See 14-1-12- Exc. 5.

Exceptions: (1) When the spot of a foul is in advance of the spot where the offensive player lost possession, the spot of enforcement is the spot where player possession was lost and the ball reverts to offensive team.​

Thank you

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

So why is it that a defensive hold, which is a passing penalty, was enforced at the end of the run? It should have been enforced when the hold took place, not the end of the play.

they are always are added to the run but I figured that would assume that the ball was not fumbled

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

It was the correct call. I think it's kind of dumb though.

FOUL ENFORCEMENT ON RUNNING PLAY WITH POSSESSION CHANGE

Article 13 When a defensive foul occurs during a running play (3-27-2) and the run in which the foul occurs is followed by a change of possession, the spot of enforcement is the spot of the foul and ball reverts to offensive team. See 14-1-12- Exc. 5.

Exceptions: (1) When the spot of a foul is in advance of the spot where the offensive player lost possession, the spot of enforcement is the spot where player possession was lost and the ball reverts to offensive team.​

weird rule re the spot,

 

[Kevinicus]

they are always are added to the run but I figured that would assume that the ball was not fumbled

Agreed, one would think they would not get the double benefit of the the penalty (which gives the ball back and yards) and the yards gained prior to turning the ball over. If you lose the ball, you shouldn't get to keep those yards too.

 

[DogFace]

A defense hold doesn't negate an offensive play. It's not an either/or situation. That means that you get credit up to where the hold takes place, and then the penalty is tacked on.

Essentially, they got the half the distance to the goal from where Winston was when the hold took place.

All that being said, it was the wrong call period because Winston is running the ball, he's not looking to throw. Who the hell calls a defensive hold on a running play? Technically, it CAN happen, but you never see that called.

That's the key for me and a point all the "calls go both way" crowd don't get. Imo. You WILL NOT see a call like that in that situation ever again. You've not seen it until now and you've watched plenty of football.

 

[DogFace]

Excellent point. Neither the hold nor the push was excessive but only one was called. That's not really fair and balanced officiating.

As we've discussed in the refs thread, a push in the back in the direction of his momentum while a player is running full speed for about 50 yards and right before a player is ready to jump will have a profound affect. Even if the push is slight.

You see plays like that in basketball a lot. Where the player essentially freezes and doesn't continue his jump.

But yes. Both or neither should be called. Be consistent. In The Mo Pi there was less contact unarguably.

 

[DogFace]

Last year we were given a break from these calls. Particularly the ones that are similar but go against us on both sides of the ball.

No. It's not that I didn't notice because we were winning. I was consistent about that on here and to my wife who loves my complaints.

The Detriot call was correct. Hichens simply pushed his hand off of his mask. The media felt differently and made the lions the victims.
Then the season was topped with the Dez call.

Several calls this year have been beyond comparison or reasonable explanation: the late hit on Romo in the season opener. The Street Pi and the fake timeout by Seattle.