The Case Against Zack Martin

[CowboysLaw87]

OK so most assume that Martin could be a Pro Bowl level OG, with the ability to also play RT. Accordingly, everybody points to Martin's position flex as a compelling reason to take him at 16. I have my reservations for the following reason... although position flex is great, he can only play ONE POSITION at once. So let's evaluate his worthiness of the 16th overall pick separately... at OG and then at RT.

OG: He's said to be very well-suited to play OG in the NFL. He's powerful, technically sound, well-balanced. But the bar is extremely high in terms of an OG being worthy of a pick that high. Last year we saw 2... Martin is probably not as special in his power and physical dominance as Warmack, nor is he as special in his athleticism for the position as Cooper. I do think he's a better OG prospect than DeCastro from 2012 though. With a defense like the one we have, is an OG like Martin worthy of 16?

OT: He was awesome as a college LT, but with 32 7/8" arms, many feel like he has limitations at the next level outside. I think he can play it to at least an adequate level. He's probably got a future as an above average NFL RT as a matter of fact. But the lack of superior length and athleticism means that you're hard pressed to see him as a mid-1st rounder purely as an OT.

So if he's probably not worthy of 16 as a OG or OT, then is he worth 16? He can only play one position at once, meaning that no matter where we play him, he's likely not valued as a mid-1st rounder at that particular moment. What's worse... he's furthest from valued appropriately when looked at as a RT, which he'd probably play for us for the vast majority of his time as a Cowboy, considering he'd be in line to bump out to RT when Free leaves.

Is the security of "position flexibility" so valuable that it moves a guy up the board more than I'm giving credit for? Maybe so. Thoughts?

 

[burmafrd]

OK so most assume that Martin could be a Pro Bowl level OG, with the ability to also play RT. Accordingly, everybody points to Martin's position flex as a compelling reason to take him at 16. I have my reservations for the following reason... although position flex is great, he can only play ONE POSITION at once. So let's evaluate his worthiness of the 16th overall pick separately... at OG and then at RT.

OG: He's said to be very well-suited to play OG in the NFL. He's powerful, technically sound, well-balanced. But the bar is extremely high in terms of an OG being worthy of a pick that high. Last year we saw 2... Martin is probably not as special in his power and physical dominance as Warmack, nor is he as special in his athleticism for the position as Cooper. I do think he's a better OG prospect than DeCastro from 2012 though. With a defense like the one we have, is an OG like Martin worthy of 16?

OT: He was awesome as a college LT, but with 32 7/8" arms, many feel like he has limitations at the next level outside. I think he can play it to at least an adequate level. He's probably got a future as an above average NFL RT as a matter of fact. But the lack of superior length and athleticism means that you're hard pressed to see him as a mid-1st rounder purely as an OT.

So if he's probably not worthy of 16 as a OG or OT, then is he worth 16? He can only play one position at once, meaning that no matter where we play him, he's likely not valued as a mid-1st rounder at that particular moment. What's worse... he's furthest from valued appropriately when looked at as a RT, which he'd probably play for us for the vast majority of his time as a Cowboy, considering he'd be in line to bump out to RT when Free leaves.

Is the security of "position flexibility" so valuable that it moves a guy up the board more than I'm giving credit for? Maybe so. Thoughts?

position flex is a huge thing with the Boys now- and it should be. The day of someone only playing one position on the O line is pretty much gone. Martin could play either guard position or RT. And he has practiced at Center. so he could probably play 4 positions on the O line. And likely all pretty well and a couple more than likely near Pro Bowl level.

He started 52 games for ND. Think about that. 52 straight games. So reliability is also something he excells in. All consider him extremely dedicated and a fine technician.

I think if one of the top DL prospects are not there at 16 and we do not get a good trade offer to trade down, then I would say he SHOULD be carefully looked at as the pick.

 

[Gaede]

I agree with the OP. I view Martin as a G only due to arm length, and a) we have more pressing issues than G and b) there are a ton of good G/T in this draft that drafting one at 16 would be poor value

 

[visionary]

martin is tricky @16 because there are players who would be close as OG in rounds 2 or even 3

if players we like are gone and cant trade down then he could be a safe pick

 

[burmafrd]

I agree with the OP. I view Martin as a G only due to arm length, and a) we have more pressing issues than G and b) there are a ton of good G/T in this draft that drafting one at 16 would be poor value

you do know that several of the top tackles in the league have arm lengths about the same as martin, right?

 

[tm1119]

martin is tricky @16 because there are players who would be close as OG in rounds 2 or even 3

if players we like are gone and cant trade down then he could be a safe pick

Yeah I think Thomas, Bitonio, and Dozier are all pretty comparable to Martin honestly. I think Martin might actually have 1 of the lowest bust factors out of anybody in this draft and will be better day 1, but as far as potential I don't see much of a difference.

I'd much rather grab 1 of those guys in the 3rd than draft Martin 16 overall. I just don't think he's going to be the type if impact player that will make a difference that yoy look for in the 16th overall pick.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

martin is tricky @16 because there are players who would be close as OG in rounds 2 or even 3

if players we like are gone and cant trade down then he could be a safe pick

That's a good point. Is the difference between Martin at OG and guys like Yankey, Sua-Filo, G. Jackson, etc. really all that much? He's clearly the guy you'd confidently stick at RT out of that bunch, but evaluated at OG, I just don't see the value. He compares most closely to Brandon Thomas and Joel Bitonio, because those two guys are truly seen as OT/OG flex guys. I do see Martin as at least a notch above those guys, but I'm struggling to see him as the 16th overall best player because I know he'll be at RT starting in Year 2 if he comes here.

Seems to me like another in a long line of guys that I like, but don't love at #16. Another top candidate after a moderate trade down (hopefully).

 

[Gaede]

you do know that several of the top tackles in the league have arm lengths about the same as martin, right?

Obviously not. I would love for you to correct my mistake.

 

[jterrell]

MY only real knock on Martin is I do not believe he starts for us in 2014.

I like his fit for this team as a possible RG/RT swing guy and like his make up and maturity.
Nothing at all to dislike about him except that top line... I am not convinced he starts this year and we are desperate for starters in many places.

I do believe Leary with his experience and Bern and Free are better players at their positions right now.

I also fully acknowledge Martin would be at least the 3rd best OG day 1 and has the potential to be far better than either OG.

I am not quite so sold he is a better RT than even Parnell at this point. So the swing value for me is more minimal. I think he goes to games as the 3rd OG and 4th OT in 2014 before becoming a full-time starting OG in 2015.
I expect more value than that at 16 in this really deep class.

I would be all over Martin in a trade down type scenario that offers us more shots at the heart of this draft in rounds 3 or 4.

 

[IrishAnto]

Yeah I think Thomas, Bitonio, and Dozier are all pretty comparable to Martin honestly. I think Martin might actually have 1 of the lowest bust factors out of anybody in this draft and will be better day 1, but as far as potential I don't see much of a difference.

I'd much rather grab 1 of those guys in the 3rd than draft Martin 16 overall. I just don't think he's going to be the type if impact player that will make a difference that yoy look for in the 16th overall pick.

I’m not touting Martin per se however Thomas, Bitonio and Dozier are rated lower for a reason.

Potential is obviously a factor in choosing a player but in many cases that potential is never reached.

Martin’s combination of durability (52 straight games), technical ability, flexibility and general nous for the game make him a fine prospect.

And as it stands the Cowboys need all the “fine prospects” they can lay their hand on.

 

[tm1119]

I’m not touting Martin per se however Thomas, Bitonio and Dozier are rated lower for a reason.

Potential is obviously a factor in choosing a player but in many cases that potential is never reached.

Martin’s combination of durability (52 straight games), technical ability, flexibility and general nous for the game make him a fine prospect.

And as it stands the Cowboys need all the “fine prospects” they can lay their hand on.

Thomas, Bitonio, and Dozier all started 30+ games as college tackles and all have just as good, if not better, physical tools as Martin. Martin is a technician and will be better day 1 as I said, but what is his ceiling? Are you willing to spend the #16 overall pick on a guard or RT that isn't physically dominant and blowing guys off of the ball? I sure wouldn't. Unless a team is drafting him as a LT (which someone very well could) I think he's a reach as a top 20 pick.

 

[IrishAnto]

Thomas, Bitonio, and Dozier all started 30+ games as college tackles and all have just as good, if not better, physical tools as Martin. Martin is a technician and will be better day 1 as I said, but what is his ceiling? Are you willing to spend the #16 overall pick on a guard or RT that isn't physically dominant and blowing guys off of the ball? I sure wouldn't. Unless a team is drafting him as a LT (which someone very well could) I think he's a reach as a top 20 pick.

You can have all the physical tools in the world but it doesn’t mean you can play in the NFL.

The term “blowing guys off the ball” had to be viewed in terms of who where the guys?

With that in mind who was it that held Aaron Donald in check at the Senior Bowl?

 

[xwalker]

you do know that several of the top tackles in the league have arm lengths about the same as martin, right?

It's more about wingspan than just arm length. Justin Pugh has shorter arms but a bigger wingspan by about 3 inches. This is an indicator that Martin has a small frame.

A guy like Joe Thomas has short arms but he is 6-7. Most OTs tend to be 6-5 or taller. Zach Martin is 6-4.

Summary: Zach Martin is shorter, with shorter arms and a smaller frames than most NFL OTs. From my research, it appears that he would have the smaller wingspan of any OT in NFL.

 

[xwalker]

Yeah I think Thomas, Bitonio, and Dozier are all pretty comparable to Martin honestly. I think Martin might actually have 1 of the lowest bust factors out of anybody in this draft and will be better day 1, but as far as potential I don't see much of a difference.

I'd much rather grab 1 of those guys in the 3rd than draft Martin 16 overall. I just don't think he's going to be the type if impact player that will make a difference that yoy look for in the 16th overall pick.

I would would rate those guys as better than just having potential. I think they just need more fine tuning and will take longer to adjust the Pro level than Martin.

To me potential implies a guy like David Arkin that clearly didn't have the strength the play in the NFL.

There are some years where I see OLinemen rated as 3rd rounders that I'm not completely convinced will be NFL starters, but this year there are guys rated as 5th or 6th rounders that look better than some 3rd rounders from past drafts.

Trade chart wise, you could draft all 3 of the above listed guys for about 1/2 of the point value of taking Martin at #16. I can almost guarantee that if you drafted all 3 that at least 1 is going to be a high quality NFL starter.

 

[Sydla]

Thomas, Bitonio, and Dozier all started 30+ games as college tackles and all have just as good, if not better, physical tools as Martin. Martin is a technician and will be better day 1 as I said, but what is his ceiling? Are you willing to spend the #16 overall pick on a guard or RT that isn't physically dominant and blowing guys off of the ball? I sure wouldn't. Unless a team is drafting him as a LT (which someone very well could) I think he's a reach as a top 20 pick.

Most scouts wouldn't agree with this. Again, it reads like Martin is that untalented kid that just worked hard and became good but won't get any better as he's maxed out his talents and has a limited ceiling. People said the same thing about Frederick last year. He was a guy that was a great technician but not particularly flashy or having massive upside. Wasn't apparently very athletic and his ceiling was questionable.

That being said, I wouldn't take him at 16 either. Maybe in the 20s, if we traded down and there was defensive guy on the board that we really, really like.

 

[IrishAnto]

I would would rate those guys as better than just having potential. I think they just need more fine tuning and will take longer to adjust the Pro level than Martin.

To me potential implies a guy like David Arkin that clearly didn't have the strength the play in the NFL.

There are some years where I see OLinemen rated as 3rd rounders that I'm not completely convinced will be NFL starters, but this year there are guys rated as 5th or 6th rounders that look better than some 3rd rounders from past drafts.

Trade chart wise, you could draft all 3 of the above listed guys for about 1/2 of the point value of taking Martin at #16. I can almost guarantee that if you drafted all 3 that at least 1 is going to be a high quality NFL starter.

We won't pick all three, so the problem which of the three will be "the man"?

Going on the Boys record of picking and developing linemen picked in the lower rounds isn't good and until I see some consistency there I'm not convinced we'll pick the right guy.

 

[burmafrd]

Love the talk about drafting guards later...

like that has worked so well for us the last 20 years.....

 

[xwalker]

We won't pick all three, so the problem which of the three will be "the man"?

Going on the Boys record of picking and developing linemen picked in the lower rounds isn't good and until I see some consistency there I'm not convinced we'll pick the right guy.

I'm just giving an example of how much it cost to draft a player at #16. Yes, I'm sure that they won't draft all 3, but the probabilities would be heavily in their favor if they did do it as compared to drafting Martin at #16.

If you're going to draft scared because of history, then that's a problem. The Cowboys have had quite a few screw ups in the 1st round also. Bobby Carpenter, Shante Carver, Ekuban, LeFleur, etc.. I have better feeling about OL evaluation with Callahan and Frank Pollack on the coaching staff and with Garrett's emphasis on evaluating the mental makeup of draft prospects. He actually hired an outside company that evaluates the mental makeup of all draft picks. Robert Brewster was a bust because of his poor mental makeup, not due to a lack of physical ability. That just leaves David Arkin as the primary guy that they drafted that just didn't have the physical ability to play in the NFL. Nagy was actually a decent 7th round pick but got a career ending type injury. I think the scouting dept. has changed substantial since they drafted Martin and Jacob Rogers.

 

[TheCount]

OK so most assume that Martin could be a Pro Bowl level OG, with the ability to also play RT. Accordingly, everybody points to Martin's position flex as a compelling reason to take him at 16. I have my reservations for the following reason... although position flex is great, he can only play ONE POSITION at once. So let's evaluate his worthiness of the 16th overall pick separately... at OG and then at RT.

OG: He's said to be very well-suited to play OG in the NFL. He's powerful, technically sound, well-balanced. But the bar is extremely high in terms of an OG being worthy of a pick that high. Last year we saw 2... Martin is probably not as special in his power and physical dominance as Warmack, nor is he as special in his athleticism for the position as Cooper. I do think he's a better OG prospect than DeCastro from 2012 though. With a defense like the one we have, is an OG like Martin worthy of 16?

OT: He was awesome as a college LT, but with 32 7/8" arms, many feel like he has limitations at the next level outside. I think he can play it to at least an adequate level. He's probably got a future as an above average NFL RT as a matter of fact. But the lack of superior length and athleticism means that you're hard pressed to see him as a mid-1st rounder purely as an OT.

So if he's probably not worthy of 16 as a OG or OT, then is he worth 16? He can only play one position at once, meaning that no matter where we play him, he's likely not valued as a mid-1st rounder at that particular moment. What's worse... he's furthest from valued appropriately when looked at as a RT, which he'd probably play for us for the vast majority of his time as a Cowboy, considering he'd be in line to bump out to RT when Free leaves.

Is the security of "position flexibility" so valuable that it moves a guy up the board more than I'm giving credit for? Maybe so. Thoughts?

Well first of all, 32 7/8"? You're really being a stickler for that last 1/8th, eh? 33 sounds a whole long longer than 32 7/8, I guess.

I think some people are too obsessed with the spot. 16 is a mid first round pick. Kyle Long and Justin Pugh were taken at 19 and 20 last year, neither was considered "special", yet Long went to the Pro Bowl as an alternate. Was 19 too high for a guard for the Bears? You think they're bummed they don't have to address guard this year because they decided they didn't want one at 19 the year prior?

It's not about who we take at 16 overall, other than you want a guy that can start and hopefully become a very good player. It's about what you do in 2-7, that's what makes a draft. Taking a Guard/RT prospect at 16 will not make or break this team, and frankly, guard is about the safest position you can draft in the first round. DL? One of the riskiest.

I'm not saying you pass on DL, but the idea that taking Martin for fear of his busting out is a bit far fetched if what you're looking for is a reliable pick.

 

[IrishAnto]

I'm just giving an example of how much it cost to draft a player at #16. Yes, I'm sure that they won't draft all 3, but the probabilities would be heavily in their favor if they did do it as compared to drafting Martin at #16.

If you're going to draft scared because of history, then that's a problem. The Cowboys have had quite a few screw ups in the 1st round also. Bobby Carpenter, Shante Carver, Ekuban, LeFleur, etc.. I have better feeling about OL evaluation with Callahan and Frank Pollack on the coaching staff and with Garrett's emphasis on evaluating the mental makeup of draft prospects. He actually hired an outside company that evaluates the mental makeup of all draft picks. Robert Brewster was a bust because of his poor mental makeup, not due to a lack of physical ability. That just leaves David Arkin as the primary guy that they drafted that just didn't have the physical ability to play in the NFL. Nagy was actually a decent 7th round pick but got a career ending type injury. I think the scouting dept. has changed substantial since they drafted Martin and Jacob Rogers.

I’m not advocating we draft “scared”, however the cowboys record is poor and until I see several drafts where they succeed in developing a lower round OL pick into a genuine NFL player I’ll remain sceptical as to whether they can do it or not.

They can’t afford to spend three picks on the OL so the odds aren’t going to be in their favour.

In addition I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the two best players on the OL were first round draft picks.

Ultimately I don’t think they’ll pick Martin, however he’s ranked highly for a very good reason and I for one wouldn’t be unhappy with us picking him.