The Case Against Zack Martin

[CowboysLaw87]

Well first of all, 32 7/8"? You're really being a stickler for that last 1/8th, eh? 33 sounds a whole long longer than 32 7/8, I guess. .

Huh? I'm not being a stickler for 1/8". 33" arms is not the standard. If I'm drafting an OT in the 1st round, I'd like his arm length to be closer to 35" to be honest. I was only trying to give the most accurate measurement I could on his arm length.

 

[TheCount]

Huh? I'm not being a stickler for 1/8". 33" arms is not the standard. If I'm drafting an OT in the 1st round, I'd like his arm length to be closer to 35" to be honest. I was only trying to give the most accurate measurement I could on his arm length.

I'm not going to argue over arm length.

What players do you consider worthy of 16th overall?

 

[CowboysLaw87]

I'm not going to argue over arm length.

What players do you consider worthy of 16th overall?

Arm length has been pegged as one of the most reliable measurements for determining NFL success at certain positions. OT being one of them. I don't think Martin is a lost cause because of it... just another part of the analysis.

Players I consider worthy of 16 (within reason): Barr, Donald, Evans. After that I'd strongly prefer a trade down, but Mosley, Clinton-Dix and Martin come next (and probably in that order).

 

[xwalker]

I’m not advocating we draft “scared”, however the cowboys record is poor and until I see several drafts where they succeed in developing a lower round OL pick into a genuine NFL player I’ll remain sceptical as to whether they can do it or not.

They can’t afford to spend three picks on the OL so the odds aren’t going to be in their favour.

In addition I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the two best players on the OL were first round draft picks.

Ultimately I don’t think they’ll pick Martin, however he’s ranked highly for a very good reason and I for one wouldn’t be unhappy with us picking him.

Leary actually graded out higher than Fred in some games in 2013. He is way underrated by the fans/media.

 

[burmafrd]

Arm length has been pegged as one of the most reliable measurements for determining NFL success at certain positions. OT being one of them. I don't think Martin is a lost cause because of it... just another part of the analysis.

Players I consider worthy of 16 (within reason): Barr, Donald, Evans. After that I'd strongly prefer a trade down, but Mosley, Clinton-Dix and Martin come next (and probably in that order).

1 inch cannot possibly make THAT much difference

Gil Brandt said the boys did not draft Mike Singletary because he was 1 inch shorter then their minimum height for LBs.

 

[IrishAnto]

Leary actually graded out higher than Fred in some games in 2013. He is way underrated by the fans/media.

And Leary would have been a reasonably high draft pick if it wasn't for his knee.

 

[Nirvana]

1 inch cannot possibly make THAT much difference

Gil Brandt said the boys did not draft Mike Singletary because he was 1 inch shorter then their minimum height for LBs.

 

[TheCount]

Players I consider worthy of 16 (within reason): Barr, Donald, Evans. After that I'd strongly prefer a trade down, but Mosley, Clinton-Dix and Martin come next (and probably in that order).

So Martin is on your list, yet you felt you needed to make an argument against him? I'd be much more interested to hear your Pro Evans argument, to be honest.

 

[burmafrd]

How much and who were they? Wonder why they were not mentioned?

 

[CowboysLaw87]

So Martin is on your list, yet you felt you needed to make an argument against him? I'd be much more interested to hear your Pro Evans argument, to be honest.

There are arguments for and against every player. Sometimes considering the negatives is as useful of an exercise as focusing on the positives. Plus, he's 6th on my "realistic list" at 16... so clearly an "against" argument can be made, or else he'd be higher.

My "pro Evans" argument is simple- he's a beast/stud who is better than the 16th best player in this draft. I don't think we're so set at WR that a WR should be blacklisted for the pick. He's a mismatch nightmare with a truly rare blend of overall size, athleticism and skill, and protects us against an injury to Dez and/or T-Will. Also, we're a pass-first offense, who just brought in yet another pass-first mind to call plays, and whose biggest contract belongs to the QB. I can go on and on.

 

[xwalker]

And Leary would have been a reasonably high draft pick if it wasn't for his knee.

The Cowboys had him rated as a 3rd round pick if not for the knee.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

OK so most assume that Martin could be a Pro Bowl level OG, with the ability to also play RT. Accordingly, everybody points to Martin's position flex as a compelling reason to take him at 16. I have my reservations for the following reason... although position flex is great, he can only play ONE POSITION at once. So let's evaluate his worthiness of the 16th overall pick separately... at OG and then at RT.

OG: He's said to be very well-suited to play OG in the NFL. He's powerful, technically sound, well-balanced. But the bar is extremely high in terms of an OG being worthy of a pick that high. Last year we saw 2... Martin is probably not as special in his power and physical dominance as Warmack, nor is he as special in his athleticism for the position as Cooper. I do think he's a better OG prospect than DeCastro from 2012 though. With a defense like the one we have, is an OG like Martin worthy of 16?

OT: He was awesome as a college LT, but with 32 7/8" arms, many feel like he has limitations at the next level outside. I think he can play it to at least an adequate level. He's probably got a future as an above average NFL RT as a matter of fact. But the lack of superior length and athleticism means that you're hard pressed to see him as a mid-1st rounder purely as an OT.

So if he's probably not worthy of 16 as a OG or OT, then is he worth 16? He can only play one position at once, meaning that no matter where we play him, he's likely not valued as a mid-1st rounder at that particular moment. What's worse... he's furthest from valued appropriately when looked at as a RT, which he'd probably play for us for the vast majority of his time as a Cowboy, considering he'd be in line to bump out to RT when Free leaves.

Is the security of "position flexibility" so valuable that it moves a guy up the board more than I'm giving credit for? Maybe so. Thoughts?

He is better than Warmack in space. Warmack was great in short areas like on whams and traps or when asked to combo with the C and peel off onto a LBer. Very technically sound in doing so. He was very poor at pulling to the outside or in seeking LB when he had farther than 3 yards to travel. This bore out in his agility drills which were putrid.

I will say that I predicted he would struggle in pass pro as he lacks side to side quickness and sure enough he did. Martin will not have this issue as he has very good quickness.

I have to say that Warmack's power is about the most overrated thing I have ever seen even to this day. Chance was good at beating up on LBers and DBs but when he was matched up against big strong DT like you will see in TN, LSU and AL he could not get any push. Now I did not see Martin matched up against those guys but he beat up on DE as well as anyone and I did see him drive Sutton a time or two vs ASU. Compare that to seeing Warmakc fail to get push versus Jenkins, Logan, etc.

Warmack needed a Barrett Jones double team to get any push against quality DT.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

He is better than Warmack in space. Warmack was great in short areas like on whams and traps or when asked to combo with the C and peel off onto a LBer. Very technically sound in doing so. He was very poor at pulling to the outside or in seeking LB when he had farther than 3 yards to travel. This bore out in his agility drills which were putrid.

I will say that I predicted he would struggle in pass pro as he lacks side to side quickness and sure enough he did. Martin will not have this issue as he has very good quickness.

I have to say that Warmack's power is about the most overrated thing I have ever seen even to this day. Chance was good at beating up on LBers and DBs but when he was matched up against big strong DT like you will see in TN, LSU and AL he could not get any push. Now I did not see Martin matched up against those guys but he beat up on DE as well as anyone and I did see him drive Sutton a time or two vs ASU. Compare that to seeing Warmakc fail to get push versus Jenkins, Logan, etc.

Warmack needed a Barrett Jones double team to get any push against quality DT.

Interesting. I appreciate the breakdown. Admittedly, I need to do more Martin viewing... a lot of what I'm basing my opinions on currently are from reading reports. I've seen 2 of his games on draftbreakdown, but there are plenty more.

Are you thinking that he's capable of playing RT at a high level in the NFL and/or is worthy of #16?

 

[SportsGuru80]

Martin can play guard and have no problems at all... I wouldn't be mad if Dallas selected him at 16.

 

[TheCount]

There are arguments for and against every player. Sometimes considering the negatives is as useful of an exercise as focusing on the positives. Plus, he's 6th on my "realistic list" at 16... so clearly an "against" argument can be made, or else he'd be higher.

Fair enough, but most teams would be thrilled to get one of the Top 6 guys they covet in a given round.

My "pro Evans" argument is simple- he's a beast/stud who is better than the 16th best player in this draft. I don't think we're so set at WR that a WR should be blacklisted for the pick. He's a mismatch nightmare with a truly rare blend of overall size, athleticism and skill, and protects us against an injury to Dez and/or T-Will. Also, we're a pass-first offense, who just brought in yet another pass-first mind to call plays, and whose biggest contract belongs to the QB. I can go on and on.

Interesting that you're so open to taking a potential Pro Bowl WR at 16, but not a potential Pro Bowl OG or RT. I think that the infatuation with skill players is built into any franchise and fan base, they are easy to cheer for (even while you're losing), but it seems Cowboy fans suffer from it pretty acutely.

Every year I predict that at seasons end you'll hear a lot of moans about the trenches but by draft time you'll hear a lot of cheers for the skill players. I'm never wrong about that one. I can't even begin to express how big a mistake I think it'd be to draft a WR at 16.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

How much and who were they? Wonder why they were not mentioned?

Assuming that they are right and it's only two, they are Michael Roos, whose arms measured in at 33 5/8 and the other is Matt Light, measuring in at 33 1/4.

So if Zach Martin ever became a pro bowl OT, he would have the shortest arms in quite some time. However, there will be several players picked before 16 who aren't consistent starters through there career, so I'll take a good tackle at 16 if they are available (and potentially a great guard).

 

[Manwiththeplan]

OG: He's said to be very well-suited to play OG in the NFL. He's powerful, technically sound, well-balanced. But the bar is extremely high in terms of an OG being worthy of a pick that high. Last year we saw 2... Martin is probably not as special in his power and physical dominance as Warmack, nor is he as special in his athleticism for the position as Cooper. I do think he's a better OG prospect than DeCastro from 2012 though. With a defense like the one we have, is an OG like Martin worthy of 16

While he may not be as powerful as Warmack or as quick/agile as Cooper, he's definitely quicker/more agile than Warmack and more powerful than Cooper. Does that mean he's better than both prospects, in between the two or inferior than both, I don't know. But both were gone by 10 I think, so Martin doesn't need to be better than either to be picked 16th.

 

[manster4ever]

I agree with the OP. I view Martin as a G only due to arm length, and a) we have more pressing issues than G and b) there are a ton of good G/T in this draft that drafting one at 16 would be poor value

nice post. He's a SOLID player, but not at 16....that's a reach IMO. As another poster said, trade down to mid 20's...then maybe.

 

[btcutter]

nice post. He's a SOLID player, but not at 16....that's a reach IMO. As another poster said, trade down to mid 20's...then maybe.

Let me ask this.
If Martin is a perennial pro bowler at G would he not be worth the 16 the pick? If the scouts feel that he can be then why won't you take him?

 

[IrishAnto]

Let me ask this.
If Martin is a perennial pro bowler at G would he not be worth the 16 the pick? If the scouts feel that he can be then why won't you take him?

Some people get fixated on where they perceive a player should be picked particularly in regard to traditionally lower valued positions (of which guard is one).

Frankly if he turns into a good/pro bowl player I don’t care if we pick him at 16 rather that risk a trade down to where his perceived value is and potentially miss him.

Frederick was rated as a second round pick (or lower) by the “draft experts” yet I don’t hear too many complaints about the pick now.