The effects of relying on unreliable people

[Jumbo075]

A lot of teams do, not all and they usually don't wast 1st and 2nd rnd picks to do it. They may take a flyer on a player because of problems that slides down to like the late 3rd or 4th rnd.
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Pick 60 is only 3 picks away from being a 3rd round pick...

It's not like the Cowboys spent the 40th pick in the draft on Gregory.

 

[gjkoeppen]

Point taken. The Browns drafted Antonio Callaway last year with his off-the field baggage. And so far this year, they've traded for locker room head case OBJ, and signed woman-beater Kareem Hunt. I've heard many saying the Browns are the favorite in the AFC North, and that they are more talented than the Cowboys.

I'll remind you about the skins who one year, 2000, brought in every top free agent they could get, none with any off the field problems, and they thought they had a lock for the division and beyond and a funny thing happened. All those stars couldn't play together and the skins finished third in the division at 8 - 8.

So there's been a team that didn't learn from the mistakes the Cowboys have made and brought in problem players and so now you think it's smart to load your team up with problem players even though they haven't won a single game yet.
.

 

[Jumbo075]

I'll remind you about the skins who one year, 2000, brought in every top free agent they could get, none with any off the field problems, and they thought they had a lock for the division and beyond and a funny thing happened. All those stars couldn't play together and the skins finished third in the division at 8 - 8.

So there's been a team that didn't learn from the mistakes the Cowboys have made and brought in problem players and so now you think it's smart to load your team up with problem players even though they haven't won a single game yet.
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Wow. You need to go to the Combine. With a logical leap that big, I'm sure you could get drafted.

 

[gjkoeppen]

Pick 60 is only 3 picks away from being a 3rd round pick...

It's not like the Cowboys spent the 40th pick in the draft on Gregory.

If read why I replied that you would have known that players like Gregory are example of what teams shouldn't do. Taking a player with off the field problems in the 1st or 2nd rnd just because they may have 1st rnd talent. As I said if they slide to the LATE 3rd or 4th rnd then maybe take a flier on them.
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[gjkoeppen]

Wow. You need to go to the Combine. With a logical leap that big, I'm sure you could get drafted.

That's a PERFECT example why we Cowboys fans are ecstatic that you have nothing to do with the Cowboys front office. Suggesting a user go to the combine because he obviously has a better grasp of how draft works so he can be drafted. Good luck with your chart and watching how it really means nothing.
.

 

[Redball Express]

One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:

• Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
• We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
• If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.

The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.

Signing Hardy was another example.

None of us should be surprised when we do these things.

We are a risk/reward team.

And we do not deviate from that.

Our DL issues are self-inflicted.

Everybody wants to blame Jerrah.

I do not think he makes a single decision without getting Stephens, Will Clay and Garrett's opinions.

And of course his wife.

But regardless..

Jerrah is a Wildcat driller.

End of story.

 

[pansophy]

Jones is still building a team in the mold pre-salary cap when he could just outspend everyone to create the most talented roster. But he can't outspend in a salary cap league, so instead he tries to get the most talented roster by getting a collection of high-risk high-reward players because they are the ones who have extraordinary talent that can be had cheaply.

Problem is of course that these folks are rarely able to stay on the field for very long. We've had a couple of success cases along the way but certainly not enough to justify the strategy.

We also spend a lot of money on our top guys, but again because we can outspend everyone, we aren't able to pay for quality backups. So when a couple of guys go down like they do every year, the wheels fall off the team.

Steelers, Patriots, Giants all have this figured out. They let go of their most expensive talent so that they can have a talented and deep roster even if they don't have the best players at any particular position. QB is the exception, but even Brady has taken a bit less money so that he can have a deeper team.

So yes agree with the post and believe the problem extends beyond just the unreliable guys. Jones is trying to gets the most talented roster, so that we can run schemes from the 90's that work if you have the most talented roster.

It's a different era and 25 years of losing hasn't seemed to get them to change yet. I have some faith in Stephen though. This is the height of football and sports in general though -- if I was the Jones family I would sell when Jerry passes. NFL football may still exist in 25 years but it won't be like today.

 

[SloMo_Joe]

One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:

• Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
• We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
• If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.

The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.

JJT said this exact same thing on the radio yesterday. You're both spot on.

 

[JoeKing]

I disagree. Irving and Gregory were gambles with great up side if they panned out, just like Jaylon Smith. You posters complaining about these two now with the advantage of hindsight are just gnashing on sour grapes. The first thing you posters need to understand is Jerry Jones isn't just the GM, he's a humanitarian. He didn't just acquire these two to help the team, he did it to save these two people if possible. It's like you posters know nothing about people with bipolar disorder or drug problems, there is guaranteed to be set backs so you don't cut bait with them when it happens. These are flawed human beings so you don't rely on them to be the backbone of your defense either which is why Jerry never did that, despite what the OP tries to convince you of. They were both long shots with great upside and only Gregory cost us a draft pick, Irving was a FA waived by KC. If you don't understand the commitment Jerry vowed to these guys then you need to educate yourself about recovering from the problems they continue to dealing with. Jerry is still committed to helping Randy Gregory. I applaud Jerry and his commitment to help these two individuals. It's only though commitment like that that these guys ever even had a chance. Some things are bigger that football.

 

[Melonfeud]

Wow. You need to go to the Combine. With a logical leap that big, I'm sure you could get drafted.

man, that's some instantly turned to classic type of material right there Friend,
Kudos to you& my immediate respect.

 

[CyberB0b]

Irving proved to be an elite interior rusher. Gregory was a top 5 draft talent. I would take those risks again if similar situations came up, especially for premium position players.

Just because you take those guys does not mean you need to depend on them. If you take these riskier players you can still reinforce the position group through draft/trade/FA to protect yourself.

Obviously every situation should be looked at specifically but to look at Irving and Gregory with 20/20 hindsight is not fair. They were both calculated risks and I believe were worth the shot.

The risk was fine, but keeping them around for as long as they did hinders the team.

 

[Kaiser]

Jones is still building a team in the mold pre-salary cap when he could just outspend everyone to create the most talented roster. But he can't outspend in a salary cap league, so instead he tries to get the most talented roster by getting a collection of high-risk high-reward players because they are the ones who have extraordinary talent that can be had cheaply.

IMO you just described Daniel Snyder, not Jerry Jones. Dallas has drafted 8 Pro Bowl players in the last five years, draft picks like Martin, Fred and LVE weren't high risk, high reward.

They really have three high risk, high reward moves. Two were Jaylon Smith, which worked and the other was Randy Gregory. That move is a minus right now but apparently this suspension is more about process than relapse, so there is certainly the possibiity it turns into a positve. It looked like a positive at the end of the season.

The third was Greg Hardy, which was a gamble but its extremely rare to a Pro Bowl edge rusher available, much less willing to take a one year, incentive based deal. And Hardy probably would have turned into that level of player if ESPN hadn't decided it was a rating bonanza to feature him 24 hours a day for weeks.

 

[Stash]

One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:

• Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
• We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
• If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.

The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.

This has long been a Jerry Jones tactic to get "talent" at a reduced cost. To "steal one" in an effort to gain an advantage in an otherwise even playing field. Whereas some teams rely on very good pro scouting, we employ another Garrett there who also can't do his job.

 

[northerncowboynation]

One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:

• Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
• We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
• If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.

The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.

The effects of relying on unreliable people? Premature baldness and erectile dysfunction, bloating, constipation and passing loud smelly flatulence

 

[pansophy]

IMO you just described Daniel Snyder, not Jerry Jones. Dallas has drafted 8 Pro Bowl players in the last five years, draft picks like Martin, Fred and LVE weren't high risk, high reward.

They really have three high risk, high reward moves. Two were Jaylon Smith, which worked and the other was Randy Gregory. That move is a minus right now but apparently this suspension is more about process than relapse, so there is certainly the possibiity it turns into a positve. It looked like a positive at the end of the season.

The third was Greg Hardy, which was a gamble but its extremely rare to a Pro Bowl edge rusher available, much less willing to take a one year, incentive based deal. And Hardy probably would have turned into that level of player if ESPN hadn't decided it was a rating bonanza to feature him 24 hours a day for weeks.

Our O-line picks happened because trades or DL players fell through. If we look at our draft successes, with probably the exception of Zeke, we have had success in spite of ourselves rather than from going with our plan. Had things gone to plan we would have Paxton Lynch and probably still trying to keep Romo on the field.

 

[Kaiser]

Our O-line picks happened because trades or DL players fell through. .

Which ones? Not saying you are wrong, but I don't remember any of that.

And Payton Lynch is a bad example IMO. They made an offer to trade up, had the chance to increase it to beat Denver's offer and declined to do so. Jerry talking about second guessing himself doesn't change what they actually did.

And regardless they would have drafted Dak Prescott, they did more homework on him than any other team and would have taken him for exactly the role they envisioned - a high character guy they could groom for the long term. They draft Mike White in the 5th last year and Prescott at the very end of the 4th, both are similar picks.

 

[Diehardblues]

This has long been a Jerry Jones tactic to get "talent" at a reduced cost. To "steal one" in an effort to gain an advantage in an otherwise even playing field. Whereas some teams rely on very good pro scouting, we employ another Garrett there who also can't do his job.

Correct. It’s an effort to gain a competitive advantage that most teams whose GM’s are held more directly accountable are unwilling to take time and time again.

 

[Diehardblues]

I love the Homer who claimed Jerry pursues these guys because he’s a Humanitarian. LMAO

 

[G2]

A lot of teams do, not all and they usually don't wast 1st and 2nd rnd picks to do it. They may take a flyer on a player because of problems that slides down to like the late 3rd or 4th rnd.
.

Nearly all teams do. Unless you use the gift of hindsight, all teams take risky players. Some turn things around and some don't.

 

[Diehardblues]

Few teams take as many risk as we do. Nor pursue as many problem players as we do. And why we’re the only team in NFL to be fined for it.