The Elite QB Farce

[Diehardblues]

Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly were pretty elite in their time, but neither won a Super Bowl.

But their teams were always a serious contender.

Kellys 4 consecutive Super Bowls still a NFL record.

Correlating how many championships they win is a lame spin. It’s more about how they keep you on top as a consistent contender.

You’re almost always in it with them.

 

[keysersoze]

I think there is some validity to what you say, in that it still takes a team and that one man, by himself, does not win Super Bowls. You are spot on with that assessment and on point.

here's where we part company, is on your closing sentence.
There's a lot of talent on this Cowboys team.
you put Patrick Mahomes on this Cowboys team instead of Dak, and there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind we win the NFC East. would have been 11-5 minimum, maybe 12-4. I look at the NO and the NE games for instance, and there's zero doubt we score at least 14 points in both of those games to get 2 more wins. I think Buffalo might have played out differently as well and possibly Chicago. For sure the 2nd Philly game.

The offense was despicably bad in the NO, NE, and 2nd Philly game and not much better in the Buffalo and Chicago games. We'd have won minimum 3 of those games, maybe 4, imo with for example a Mahomes under center rather than Dak, imo.

But you are correct--we still need a team. If we had Mahomes and very little if any quality receiving corp, etc, or no O lineman, or no solid run game, we'd probably be 8-8 again.

Wrong. Mahomes natural gifts would have been coached out of him. Because that’s what Garrett does. He did it with both Romo and Dak. He wasn’t good at enhancing the attributes of his quarterbacks. He instead tried to recreate Troy Aikman with smaller and more elusive quarterbacks. He should’ve developed systems to take advantage of their strengths instead.

 

[Diehardblues]

And Elway was the most Elite of that era. And he failed to win until he had Terrell Davis and a stout defense. Go figure.

But he went to 3 Super Bowls without it. That’s how great having an Elite QB is.

Just like in 70’s. Staubach only won 2 Super Bowls but went to 5 starting in 4.

And 7 out of 10 years in Championship game. We were always in it with him regardless the team around him.

 

[Oz-of-Cowboy-Country]

I've been saying it for some time now. Run the ball. Stop the run. That's championship football. I took that from one of the greatest coaches ever, Bill Parcells.

Bill Parcells used to build up on the defensive side of the ball, being in some nice running backs and wideouts, then put a bus driver at QB. Someone who is going to be extra careful with the ball. Remember this is the guy who got Dallas into the playoffs with Quincy Carter at QB.

So a good coaching staff could win with Dak or Clayton Thorson. But with the money Dak's asking for he'll make it harder to win one with him.

 

[keysersoze]

But he went to 3 Super Bowls without it. That’s how great having an Elite QB is.

Just like in 70’s. Staubach only won 2 Super Bowls but went to 5 starting in 4 and 7 out of 10 years in Championship game. We were always in it with him.

Going and losing is just as bad as not going at all in my opinion. Elway got his *** handed to him in those super bowls and he did not look ELITE in those games either. Troy Aikman was precise. Not elite or dynamic. But he won every super bowl he played in. Why??! Because of Emmitt, Irvin, Novacek, Moose, the oline, the entire defense and a Hall of Fame coach. See how that works? Oh!! And Staubach had Landry, Dorsett, Calvin Hill, Drew Pearson, Bob Hayes and the Doomsday Defense too.

 

[Diehardblues]

Going and losing is just as bad as not going at all in my opinion. Troy Aikman was precise. Not elite or dynamic. But he won every super bowl he played in. Why??! Because of Emmitt, Irvin, Novacek, Moose, the oline, the entire defense and a Hall of Fame coach. See how that works?

That’s lame.

Of course it’s not. 30 other teams wished they’d made it to the Super Bowl.

This notion you’re only great if you win it all is completely hogwash.

That’s why there’s a Hall of Fame to recognize all of the greatness.

Unfortunately it’s often more difficult for casual fans to measure greatness without winning championships.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Wrong. Mahomes natural gifts would have been coached out of him. Because that’s what Garrett does. He did it with both Romo and Dak. He wasn’t good at enhancing the attributes of his quarterbacks. He instead tried to recreate Troy Aikman with smaller and more elusive quarterbacks. He should’ve developed systems to take advantage of their strengths instead.

That's absurd. Dak was a 4th round qb, Romo an undrafted free agent. Both exceeded expectation by a mile. This team loaded up on offensive weapons to become dak friendly. The brought in his buddy kellen Moore to be the OC. This offense is focused on the run game, but was made as "Dak friendly" as could be.

Hate on Jason Garrett all day, his time in Dallas was up, but the guy should get some credit for being able to develop QBs.

 

[keysersoze]

But he went to 3 Super Bowls without it. That’s how great having an Elite QB is.

Just like in 70’s. Staubach only won 2 Super Bowls but went to 5 starting in 4.

And 7 out of 10 years in Championship game. We were always in it with him regardless the team around him.

That’s lame.

Of course it’s not. 30 other teams wished they’d made it to the Super Bowl.

This notion you’re only great if you win it all is completely hogwash.

That’s why there’s a Hall of Fame to recognize all of the greatness.

Unfortunately it’s often more difficult for casual fans to measure greatness without winning championships.

Look Little Dude. Please stop with the disguised insults and let’s debate like men. I am in no way a casual fan. I’ve been a diehard Cowboys fan since 1976 and I’m not impressed with anything short of a championship. I’m an older guy who didn’t grow up in the fantasy football era. When I played ball there were no congratulatory awards for participation. Either you won or lost. Straight like that.

 

[Irvin88_4life]

no we want constancy he put up a ton of those yards in the weaker teams games, we want him to have those kind of numbers against the better team and especially down the stretch in the biggest games.. he regressed the last 6 games.. theres no denying that..

we like to see his best games in the big ones..

False, you fools flip flop more than changing socks when it comes to Dak.

 

[PJTHEDOORS]

I've seen so much of that here. "Got to have an elite QB" and "can't get it done without that elite QB".

The only thing I agree with is that the Cowboys do not have an elite QB and he probably won't ever be considered that.

Zzzzzz.

 

[ondaedg]

I've seen so much of that here. "Got to have an elite QB" and "can't get it done without that elite QB".

The only thing I agree with is that the Cowboys do not have an elite QB and he probably won't ever be considered that.

Brady, Brees, Wilson, Jackson, Watson all have been mentioned with as that old guard elite or the new guard. Mahomes is in that group and along with Rodgers, the only ones left in the playoffs and is Rodgers there because he's played elite this season or is it the RB and DE's? And the fact that Brees, Rodgers and Wilson only have one ring doesn't seem to matter.

Did you catch Brees, Jackson, Wilson and Watson trying to lift their teams? Or did you catch Tannehill in his last two playoff games with <200 yards? Which is it better to have? The QB to lift the team or the team to support the QB? Ask Brady, Brees, Wilson, Jackson and Watson.

This is not about Prescott, it is about every team has to build around the QB and Brees, Rodgers and Wilson are proof. Elway was elite and he wouldn't have any rings if not for a HC and RB and an offensive philosophical change..

Roger and Troy had to have teams around them, same with Starr, Bradshaw, Montana and Brady wasn't that bad this season, the team around him wasn't the usual standard.

It's one thing we've seen, different kinds of teams can do it different ways, there isn't just one template. Get that elite QB and ride the wave. This isn't baseball when they can ride a pitcher or two.

I do not think if the Cowboys had any of those elite QB's this season, it would have been much different.

Gonna get some flak for this but here goes. Eli, Williams, Foles, Rypien, Hostetler, McMahon, Plunkett, Dilfer won super bowls. Dan Marino didn't. Dan Fouts didn't.

Dak is good enough to win with.

 

[keysersoze]

That's absurd. Dak was a 4th round qb, Romo an undrafted free agent. Both exceeded expectation by a mile. This team loaded up on offensive weapons to become dak friendly. The brought in his buddy kellen Moore to be the OC. This offense is focused on the run game, but was made as "Dak friendly" as could be.

Hate on Jason Garrett all day, his time in Dallas was up, but the guy should get some credit for being able to develop QBs.

Garrett got Romo killed by trying to keep him in the pocket at all costs.

 

[Diehardblues]

Look Little Dude. Please stop with the disguised insults and let’s debate like men. I am in no way a casual fan. I’ve been a diehard Cowboys fan since 1976 and I’m not impressed with anything short of a championship. I’m an older guy who didn’t grow up in the fantasy football era. When I played ball there were no congratulatory awards for participation. Either you won or lost. Straight like that.

I didn’t say you were a casual fan . I just said that’s how casual fans often evaluate.

I’m 66 years old . Been around for the entire ride of the Cowboys.

This notion that making it to playoffs, championship games and Super Bowls is meaningless unless you win it is hogwash.

 

[HungryLion]

Can someone please give me their definition of AN ELITE QUARTERBACK? Just for reference.

Not Flacco, Foles, last season Peyton Or Eli. All QB’s who won recent superbowls.

 

[keysersoze]

Eli, Williams, Foles, Rypien, Hostetler, McMahon, Plunkett, Dilfer won super bowls. Dan Marino didn't. Dan Fouts didn't.

Dak is good enough to win with.

Don’t forget Theisman and Flacco

 

[keysersoze]

Not Flacco, Foles, last season Peyton Or Eli. All QB’s who won recent superbowls.

Right???

 

[ondaedg]

Not Flacco, Foles, last season Peyton Or Eli. All QB’s who won recent superbowls.

29yd max Peyton too.

 

[Hadenough]

Would you really consider Garoppolo as being a better QB than Dak?

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I would say that they're pretty even.

The one thing Garoppolo has that Dak didn't this year was an elite defense and a team committed to running it down their opponents throats.

But in terms of overall QB play I see him having slightly better pocket awareness than Dak has, also seems to rely on his legs a bit more than Dak has recently, and that's about it.

This is in no way a knock on Garoppolo because I think he's a very good QB but I wouldn't exactly say that he's better.

In fact, among a lot of 9ers fans locally that I speak with you'll hear many of the same criticisms of him as you would Dak but at the end of the day the common theme is that he just finds a way to win.

Thats an interesting question because just looking at stats it looks like Dak is hands down better. But watching Garoppolo play he has come up bigger on a bigger stage. He has stronger arm and quicker release than Dak but he does struggle with accuracy like Dak.

 

[HungryLion]

Right???

Russell wasn’t when he won a Super Bowl either. Russell is elite now. And has always been super talented. But he didn’t develop into elite status until 4 years in the league. He won the championship before that happened.

 

[Diehardblues]

Gonna get some flak for this but here goes. Eli, Williams, Foles, Rypien, Hostetler, McMahon, Plunkett, Dilfer won super bowls. Dan Marino didn't. Dan Fouts didn't.

Dak is good enough to win with.

Yes they did but they were the exception.

Marino and Fouts teams were serious contenders their entire career despite their supporting cast. The Bus drivers needed complete teams around them to contend.

Sure, we can win it with Dak but he’s going to need more support than a Mahomes will.