FEATURED Things I liked, things I didn't like...Philly

[BBQ101]

You can either play hurry up which is for the most part designed to keep a certain defense on the field. It also tries to catch the defense moving or not moving properly. The problem with keeping the same defense on the field is that the officials won't allow you to snap the ball until they are ready and the D has had some time to sub. .

They only do this if the offense subs as well. If the offense doesn't sub, then D isn't given time to sub.

I remember thinking in the game that they must be really resetting the clock quickly. It never felt like we got the full time. Seemed we were always getting the ball off with less than a second to spare. Game was at Philly though, and they were loud. Definitely makes it more difficult on the offense.

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[ufcrules1]

but waiting until the last minute allows the QB extra time to make all his reads, the other players to make their reads esp the receivers but also the OL, and makes the D show exactly what they intend to do.

I have heard this point of view many times and I still disagree with it. They got away from hiking the ball with barely any time on the clock in all the other games leading up to this one so far this year and have been doing fine. Also note the oline penalties have been way down compared with last year. This game against the Eagles were we let the play clock run down many times had several pre snap penalties....coincidence? Also, we weren't even playing a talented defense, quite the contrary, we were playing a pathetic defense.

I haven't seen any other team out there wait until the last second to hike the ball repeatedly like we did in that Philly game and last year. None of the elites do it, they are all very the snaps.. sometimes they let it run all the way down and other times they hike it right away. It's always random and they have no problem reading the defense or executing for the most part. So I disagree with your theory on that.

Many seem to have climbed aboard this don't late snap the ball without knowing the reasons for and against it.

Key word there is "seem". Actually, they do know and don't like it... and disagree with fans like yourself. It is pretty obvious by now that we do not need to wait until the last minute to snap the ball just so Tony can read the defense, considering he had very little problems reading the defense in all the other games this year leading up to the Philly game.

 

[ufcrules1]

Game was at Philly though, and they were loud. Definitely makes it more difficult on the offense.

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They were loud early... but then they got VERY quiet once we started beating and their team was playing horrible.

 

[ufcrules1]

They only do this if the offense subs as well. If the offense doesn't sub, then D isn't given time to sub.
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Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Idgit]

You can either play hurry up which is for the most part designed to keep a certain defense on the field. It also tries to catch the defense moving or not moving properly. The problem with keeping the same defense on the field is that the officials won't allow you to snap the ball until they are ready and the D has had some time to sub. I think you should snap the ball early some but waiting until the last minute allows the QB extra time to make all his reads, the other players to make their reads esp the receivers but also the OL, and makes the D show exactly what they intend to do. If you're going to blitz a safety or even a CB they need to be somewhere near the LOS at the time of the snap. The Mike will be where he's supposed to be at the snap so the line can make its reads as well. And Romo hopefully knows what the LBs and DBs are doing so he can run the right play called in the huddle and NOT throw the ball into the strength of the defense.

Many seem to have climbed aboard this don't late snap the ball without knowing the reasons for and against it. You may not like Romo or Garrett but they do know what they're doing even if they can't always do the right thing. They are snapping it late because they want to. It may be that Romo is just more comfortable and alas more successful running the offense that way. And please don't say that's the problem without rebutting the arguments above.

I've never had any issues with when in the play clock we snap the ball, and I still don't. If the QB wants the time, then he gets it. If he doesn't want it, he's not going to take it. It really is that simple. Our QB is pretty effective doing it the way he does it, so, whatever.

In this game, though, I think we were specifically using all the play clock up for a reason. Given how the game might have turned out, I'm sure part of the plan was to control ToP as much as we possibly could to limit the effectiveness of the PHI hurry-up and play speed on our defense.

 

[jobberone]

They only do this if the offense subs as well. If the offense doesn't sub, then D isn't given time to sub.

I remember thinking in the game that they must be really resetting the clock quickly. It never felt like we got the full time. Seemed we were always getting the ball off with less than a second to spare. Game was at Philly though, and they were loud. Definitely makes it more difficult on the offense.

BBQ

No that's not correct unless they've changed that recently. They were given a directive by the league to not allow teams to run up to the LOS and snap the ball with the defense subbing or not ready in a reasonable length of time. Now the refs aren't and don't wait all day for this to occur. This has gone on for a long time but they clarified not long ago. Say the offense in in hurry up since they need to score quickly. They complete a 30 yd pass. They cannot get over the ball and snap until the official lets go of the ball and moves out of the way. He allows the defense a reasonable time to get to the LOS and be ready before he does that.

 

[jobberone]

I have heard this point of view many times and I still disagree with it. They got away from hiking the ball with barely any time on the clock in all the other games leading up to this one so far this year and have been doing fine. Also note the oline penalties have been way down compared with last year. This game against the Eagles were we let the play clock run down many times had several pre snap penalties....coincidence? Also, we weren't even playing a talented defense, quite the contrary, we were playing a pathetic defense.

I haven't seen any other team out there wait until the last second to hike the ball repeatedly like we did in that Philly game and last year. None of the elites do it, they are all very the snaps.. sometimes they let it run all the way down and other times they hike it right away. It's always random and they have no problem reading the defense or executing for the most part. So I disagree with your theory on that.



Key word there is "seem". Actually, they do know and don't like it... and disagree with fans like yourself. It is pretty obvious by now that we do not need to wait until the last minute to snap the ball just so Tony can read the defense, considering he had very little problems reading the defense in all the other games this year leading up to the Philly game.

I said seem to be polite. And no they don't know or they wouldn't talk about it as a negative constantly. You act as if Romo, Garrett and Callahan are stupid and just don't know any better; i.e. you're more knowledgeable than they are. And I might add more so than other teams who take their time snapping the ball to get as best a pre snap read as they can. I do agree you can play an up tempo on occasion and for awhile. I wish we did that more often esp when we have them reeling. You also are more likely to turn the ball over that way which is another reason not to do it all the time.

And if you want to argue that all that waiting until the defense declares causes false starts I'm with you on that. That's the price you pay for not just hiking the ball. It's a trade off and the only people who really know if its the best thing for the team are the people I mentioned. Romo has to be comfortable and obviously he wants to do that as he does it nearly every frackin' play. That's got to mean something to some.

 

[jobberone]

Thanks for pointing that out.

It'd be more helpful if it was correct. I don't even know where that is coming from. What rule is that?

 

[jobberone]

I've never had any issues with when in the play clock we snap the ball, and I still don't. If the QB wants the time, then he gets it. If he doesn't want it, he's not going to take it. It really is that simple. Our QB is pretty effective doing it the way he does it, so, whatever.

In this game, though, I think we were specifically using all the play clock up for a reason. Given how the game might have turned out, I'm sure part of the plan was to control ToP as much as we possibly could to limit the effectiveness of the PHI hurry-up and play speed on our defense.

That's another reason to do so although I think its more common to run the clock out that way. We do it primarily as you mentioned; to make Romo get the best presnap read he can.

 

[BBQ101]

No that's not correct unless they've changed that recently. They were given a directive by the league to not allow teams to run up to the LOS and snap the ball with the defense subbing or not ready in a reasonable length of time. Now the refs aren't and don't wait all day for this to occur. This has gone on for a long time but they clarified not long ago. Say the offense in in hurry up since they need to score quickly. They complete a 30 yd pass. They cannot get over the ball and snap until the official lets go of the ball and moves out of the way. He allows the defense a reasonable time to get to the LOS and be ready before he does that.

Your comment was (which I bolded): "The problem with keeping the same defense on the field is that the officials won't allow you to snap the ball until they are ready and the D has had some time to sub. ."

Yes, the officials give time for the teams to line up at the line of scrimmage, but your original comment was that the officials also give time for the Defense to sub. That is not the case. Defense only gets time to sub when the offense subs. That is why I bolded the text in my quote of you.

I don't think that was a recent change either.

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[BBQ101]

It'd be more helpful if it was correct. I don't even know where that is coming from. What rule is that?

You need to go back and read what you wrote, and what I highlighted. But nice smiley...

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[jobberone]

Your comment was (which I bolded): "The problem with keeping the same defense on the field is that the officials won't allow you to snap the ball until they are ready and the D has had some time to sub. ."

Yes, the officials give time for the teams to line up at the line of scrimmage, but your original comment was that the officials also give time for the Defense to sub. That is not the case. Defense only gets time to sub when the offense subs. That is why I bolded the text in my quote of you.

I don't think that was a recent change either.

BBQ

Let me clarify. The league wants the teams to be able to shuttle different defensive packages in and out within reason. So I imagine the rule isn't to allow subs but to ensure both teams have adequate time to get lined up before the ball is snapped. However, primarily it is to allow the officials to get the chains moved if necessary, for all the officials to get to where they are supposed to be and for the referee to signal he and his team are ready for the ball to be snapped. At this point the ball is released and the referee signals ball in play. The league did direct the officials to allow the defense some time to be ready and that was in this offseason I believe. You should be able to google it and it was discussed here earlier this year. If there is any rule about the D can only be given time to sub if the O subs does I'm not aware of it. I'll try to look for it later.

 

[jobberone]

You need to go back and read what you wrote, and what I highlighted. But nice smiley...

BBQ

I understand what you're saying. You're just wrong from a football standpoint. I don't disagree with you feeling we need to increase the tempo at times and I'm just as frustrated as the next fan about the presnap penalties. The fact remains they are doing it for reasons which are very clear and unambiguous. They make plenty of sense although I agree there are pros and cons to their decision. That's true of many things. If you disagree then that's your right. I'm not annoyed you post this stuff over and over but I admit (my problem) that I do get a tad annoyed at times when fans think they know more than the experts do. There isn't one single coach or FO individual on the Cowboys who is stupid. They certainly aren't always right that's for sure but they aren't stupid. Smart people makes poor decisions and exercise poor judgment too esp in retrospect.

 

[jobberone]

Digest of Rules Main


Players-Substitutions

1. Each team is permitted 11 men on the field at the snap.
2. Unlimited substitution is permitted. However, players may enter the field only when the ball is dead. Players who have been substituted for are not permitted to linger on the field. Such lingering will be interpreted as unsportsmanlike conduct.
3. Players leaving the game must be out of bounds on their own side, clearing the field between the end lines, before a snap or free kick. If player crosses end line leaving field, it is delay of game (five-yard penalty).
4. Offensive substitutes who remain in the game must move onto the field as far as the inside of the field numerals before moving to a wide position.
5. With the exception of the last two minutes of either half, the offensive team, while in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line and snapping the ball with the obvious attempt to cause a defensive foul; i.e., too many men on the field.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/playersubs

I'll look at the rule book more closely later. I just don't have time now.

 

[BBQ101]

Let me clarify. The league wants the teams to be able to shuttle different defensive packages in and out within reason. So I imagine the rule isn't to allow subs but to ensure both teams have adequate time to get lined up before the ball is snapped. However, primarily it is to allow the officials to get the chains moved if necessary, for all the officials to get to where they are supposed to be and for the referee to signal he and his team are ready for the ball to be snapped. At this point the ball is released and the referee signals ball in play. The league did direct the officials to allow the defense some time to be ready and that was in this offseason I believe. You should be able to google it and it was discussed here earlier this year. If there is any rule about the D can only be given time to sub if the O subs does I'm not aware of it. I'll try to look for it later.

Here is a blurb from an article where the Jets were complaining about the Patriots no huddle offense. This sums up the rule nicely I think:

"If a substitution is made by the offense, the offense shall not be permitted to snap the ball until the defense has been permitted to respond with its substitutions. . . . The offense is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage and snapping the ball in an obvious attempt to cause a defensive foul (i.e. — too many men on the field). . . . The umpire will stand over the ball until the Referee deems that the defense has had a reasonable time to complete its substitutions."​

So, if the offense subs, the defense is given time to sub. However, if the offense does not sub, the defense is not given this time. As you said however, the defense is given an adequate amount of time to get lined up even when the offense makes no substitution.

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[BBQ101]

I understand what you're saying. You're just wrong from a football standpoint. I don't disagree with you feeling we need to increase the tempo at times and I'm just as frustrated as the next fan about the presnap penalties. The fact remains they are doing it for reasons which are very clear and unambiguous. They make plenty of sense although I agree there are pros and cons to their decision. That's true of many things. If you disagree then that's your right. I'm not annoyed you post this stuff over and over but I admit (my problem) that I do get a tad annoyed at times when fans think they know more than the experts do. There isn't one single coach or FO individual on the Cowboys who is stupid. They certainly aren't always right that's for sure but they aren't stupid. Smart people makes poor decisions and exercise poor judgment too esp in retrospect.

By the way, the only thing I was arguing was your original statement about defensive subs. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think we need to increase our tempo, or that I think I am an expert that knows more than the coaches. I wrote nothing related to that.

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[jobberone]

Here is a blurb from an article where the Jets were complaining about the Patriots no huddle offense. This sums up the rule nicely I think:

"If a substitution is made by the offense, the offense shall not be permitted to snap the ball until the defense has been permitted to respond with its substitutions. . . . The offense is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage and snapping the ball in an obvious attempt to cause a defensive foul (i.e. — too many men on the field). . . . The umpire will stand over the ball until the Referee deems that the defense has had a reasonable time to complete its substitutions."​

So, if the offense subs, the defense is given time to sub. However, if the offense does not sub, the defense is not given this time. As you said however, the defense is given an adequate amount of time to get lined up even when the offense makes no substitution.

BBQ

That's not what you've been saying. Substitutions are unlimited. That blurb is not in the rule book by the way. I posted the rule. But they are going to let both teams sub up to a point before the ball is snapped with the exception of late in the halves although they have been given directions about that as well. The offense dictates the tempo. The defense can't do anything until the ball is snapped. The offense is only limited in they must snap the ball before the clock runs out. So in effect it is the defense which must see what the offense is lining up with before sending in their packages. There is no rule which states the defense gets x time to sub only if the offense subs. It may sub at any time although they have to be timely about it under all circumstances particularly when the offense is up tempo or at the end of the halves.

 

[jobberone]

By the way, the only thing I was arguing was your original statement about defensive subs. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think we need to increase our tempo, or that I think I am an expert that knows more than the coaches. I wrote nothing related to that.

BBQ

I don't think that of you at all. I think some people are grousing about the fact Romo takes the count down to near nothing most plays and most of my replies have been to another.

 

[BBQ101]

That's not what you've been saying. Substitutions are unlimited. That blurb is not in the rule book by the way. I posted the rule. But they are going to let both teams sub up to a point before the ball is snapped with the exception of late in the halves although they have been given directions about that as well. The offense dictates the tempo. The defense can't do anything until the ball is snapped. The offense is only limited in they must snap the ball before the clock runs out. So in effect it is the defense which must see what the offense is lining up with before sending in their packages. There is no rule which states the defense gets x time to sub only if the offense subs. It may sub at any time although they have to be timely about it under all circumstances particularly when the offense is up tempo or at the end of the halves.

1) You did not post the rule, you posted a digest of the rules.

2) The blurb I posted is exactly what I have been saying. You stated that the defense was given time to sub, but that is not correct. The defense can sub at anytime (and risk two many men on the field if the offense doesn't sub and snaps), but they are only given time to sub if the offense subs.

3) I have not read the rule book, but in watching the game of football quite a while, you can infer the rules by the actions of the refs. If the offense subs, then the defense is given time to sub as well. That is why the ref stands over the ball and doesn't allow the offense to snap when the offense has subbed, and the defense is still subbing. So your statement above "There is no rule which states the defense gets x time to sub only if the offense subs." is incorrect, which is what I have been arguing, and only what I have been arguing.

Anyway, I am now done with this argument, as there is no argument. You don't seem to know the rules. I was trying to help clarify against your earlier point of "The problem with keeping the same defense on the field is that the officials won't allow you to snap the ball until they are ready and the D has had some time to sub. ." which is false. The defense is only given time by the refs to sub IF the offense has subbed. Otherwise, the defense risks playing out of position, or getting a flag for too many men on the field if they attempt to sub when the offense has not.

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[BBQ101]

I don't think that of you at all. I think some people are grousing about the fact Romo takes the count down to near nothing most plays and most of my replies have been to another.

If you don't think that of me at all, then why did you use a quote from me and then state the following:

"I understand what you're saying. You're just wrong from a football standpoint. I don't disagree with you feeling we need to increase the tempo at times and I'm just as frustrated as the next fan about the presnap penalties. The fact remains they are doing it for reasons which are very clear and unambiguous. They make plenty of sense although I agree there are pros and cons to their decision. That's true of many things. If you disagree then that's your right. I'm not annoyed you post this stuff over and over but I admit (my problem) that I do get a tad annoyed at times when fans think they know more than the experts do. There isn't one single coach or FO individual on the Cowboys who is stupid. They certainly aren't always right that's for sure but they aren't stupid. Smart people makes poor decisions and exercise poor judgment too esp in retrospect."​

You quoted me and then used words like "you", and "you're". That makes it seem like you are talking directly to me. When you quote and then use a statement of "You're just wrong from a football standpoint." it really makes it seem like you are talking directly to me. Very confusing. Glad you don't think that of me though as it is not true, nor did I make any statement to what you talk about. I was simply correcting a statement you wrote. Not sure why it has gotten this far out of hand.

Guess that is why I usually lurk.

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