Time to give up on this defense

[burmafrd]

If Jerry were to fire himself as GM half as easily as he fires the rest of his staff, the miscues that the OP mentions would more than likely have been averted. Seeing as how that's not the case, however, perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to grin, bear it and simply hope for better management from the Jones boys in the future. They're apparently a permanent fixture. We might as well just suck it up and pray for a run of miraculously good luck. It looks like it may take just that before those good old glory days return, if ever.

you get 100 monkeys pounding away at a key board and eventually they will write the Encyclopedia Britannica. Unfortunately that might take 1000 years.

 

[Bullflop]

you get 100 monkeys pounding away at a key board and eventually they will write the Encyclopedia Britannica. Unfortunately that might take 1000 years.

I'm hoping it doesn't take quite that long before the Cowboys field a team worth being proud of but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Nightman]

Beating a dead horse or not, when you are in our position of needing so many different things, you absolutely can not be giving away 2nd and 3rd round picks. Those moves are going to kill us in the long run. Claiborne is a 1st and 2nd round pick basically and he has been very bad,

Then using a 2nd round pick on a TE who never saw the field. All 3 of those picks could have been used to beef up this front 7.

I just don't buy the whole, 'so many holes' complaining. The entire Offense was coming back- the OL, WR, TE, RB and even QB.

The entire projected secondary was coming back, same with the LBers. They filled a couple holes early in FA on the DL and were getting some young injured guys back. Then they got Melton and Spencer. They got a starting caliber OG and DE early in the draft and addressed depth at LB, CB, DT and DE with the remaining picks and UDFAs.

Where are all the gaping holes? Everyone would love more depth, but losing Lawrence was a risk they didn't want to take at the expense of drafting a guy in the third round that compares to many of the UDFAs they got. They have the cap space to help replace Lee and Lawrence and McClain looks like he has already helped fill the Lee void.

 

[Galian Beast]

I just don't buy the whole, 'so many holes' complaining. The entire Offense was coming back- the OL, WR, TE, RB and even QB.

The entire projected secondary was coming back, same with the LBers. They filled a couple holes early in FA on the DL and were getting some young injured guys back. Then they got Melton and Spencer. They got a starting caliber OG and DE early in the draft and addressed depth at LB, CB, DT and DE with the remaining picks and UDFAs.

Where are all the gaping holes? Everyone would love more depth, but losing Lawrence was a risk they didn't want to take at the expense of drafting a guy in the third round that compares to many of the UDFAs they got. They have the cap space to help replace Lee and Lawrence and McClain looks like he has already helped fill the Lee void.

The signings of Mincey and McClain revealed a misunderstanding about the depth of our problems on defense.

The fact that they made no attempts to shore us up at linebacker outside of a 4th round draft pick reveal that they misunderstood our weakness at linebacker.

The fact that they didn't have Carr take a pay cut/release him revealed that they didn't understand the lopsided risk involved in paying him at his current rate given his performance.

Drafting Devin Street in the 5th round revealed that they weren't taking the problem more seriously.

These things are only compounded by the drafting of Gavin Escobar last year in the 2nd round when our defense was realing. And you're talking to someone who has high hopes for Escobar, Williams, Frederick, Martin, and even Street. But when you put all of those draft picks together spending so much on the offense was a luxury the team didn't have.

 

[xwalker]

The signings of Mincey and McClain revealed a misunderstanding about the depth of our problems on defense.

The fact that they made no attempts to shore us up at linebacker outside of a 4th round draft pick reveal that they misunderstood our weakness at linebacker.

The fact that they didn't have Carr take a pay cut/release him revealed that they didn't understand the lopsided risk involved in paying him at his current rate given his performance.

Drafting Devin Street in the 5th round revealed that they weren't taking the problem more seriously.

These things are only compounded by the drafting of Gavin Escobar last year in the 2nd round when our defense was realing. And you're talking to someone who has high hopes for Escobar, Williams, Frederick, Martin, and even Street. But when you put all of those draft picks together spending so much on the offense was a luxury the team didn't have.

Nothing is "revealed" until they play the games. The real games, not the preseason scrimmages that they call games.

 

[jobberone]

The signings of Mincey and McClain revealed a misunderstanding about the depth of our problems on defense.

The fact that they made no attempts to shore us up at linebacker outside of a 4th round draft pick reveal that they misunderstood our weakness at linebacker.

The fact that they didn't have Carr take a pay cut/release him revealed that they didn't understand the lopsided risk involved in paying him at his current rate given his performance.

Drafting Devin Street in the 5th round revealed that they weren't taking the problem more seriously.

These things are only compounded by the drafting of Gavin Escobar last year in the 2nd round when our defense was realing. And you're talking to someone who has high hopes for Escobar, Williams, Frederick, Martin, and even Street. But when you put all of those draft picks together spending so much on the offense was a luxury the team didn't have.

You draft for short, intermediate and hopefully long term gains. Sure you try to fill holes but that gets you into trouble a bit too often. Best stay with your board. For example, drafting Street may give us some leverage in dealing with Dez or another WR down the road.

 

[Galian Beast]

You draft for short, intermediate and hopefully long term gains. Sure you try to fill holes but that gets you into trouble a bit too often. Best stay with your board. For example, drafting Street may give us some leverage in dealing with Dez or another WR down the road.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but entirely ignoring the defense two years in a row, doesn't help the team in the short, intermediate or long term. Finally starting to eschew bad contracts will help the defense, but just that alone won't do it. The team needed to focus more on defense than it has in both free agency and the draft.

We were really lucky to get Melton, but it wasn't enough.

 

[TrailBlazer]

I just don't buy the whole, 'so many holes' complaining. The entire Offense was coming back- the OL, WR, TE, RB and even QB.

The entire projected secondary was coming back, same with the LBers. They filled a couple holes early in FA on the DL and were getting some young injured guys back. Then they got Melton and Spencer. They got a starting caliber OG and DE early in the draft and addressed depth at LB, CB, DT and DE with the remaining picks and UDFAs.

Where are all the gaping holes? Everyone would love more depth, but losing Lawrence was a risk they didn't want to take at the expense of drafting a guy in the third round that compares to many of the UDFAs they got. They have the cap space to help replace Lee and Lawrence and McClain looks like he has already helped fill the Lee void.

Please, the entire defense is a question mark. The entire front seven needs overhauled and we need 2 good safeties as well. The defense is a giant hole.

 

[xwalker]

I don't disagree with anything you said, but entirely ignoring the defense two years in a row, doesn't help the team in the short, intermediate or long term. Finally starting to eschew bad contracts will help the defense, but just that alone won't do it. The team needed to focus more on defense than it has in both free agency and the draft.

We were really lucky to get Melton, but it wasn't enough.

They used their 2014 2nd, 3rd, 4th and five 7ths on defense. You might not like that the 2nd and 3rd were used on 1 player, but both of those picks were used on defense.

At the time of the 2013 draft, they looked stacked on the DLine. They had Ware, Spencer, Hatcher, Ratliff and prior year's draft picks Crawford and Wilber. They also had Bass who they thought would make the roster.

 

[Galian Beast]

They used their 2014 2nd, 3rd, 4th and five 7ths on defense. You might not like that the 2nd and 3rd were used on 1 player, but both of those picks were used on defense.

At the time of the 2013 draft, they looked stacked on the DLine. They had Ware, Spencer, Hatcher, Ratliff and prior year's draft picks Crawford and Wilber. They also had Bass who they thought would make the roster.

Even I can tell you that I thought that defensive line was going to be "stacked" but many peopled warned against their age. And the luxury of drafting Lawrence, was another one that this defense probably couldn't afford, but can only be put into context by our investments in the offense over the last two years.

 

[Galian Beast]

They used their 2014 2nd, 3rd, 4th and five 7ths on defense. You might not like that the 2nd and 3rd were used on 1 player, but both of those picks were used on defense.

At the time of the 2013 draft, they looked stacked on the DLine. They had Ware, Spencer, Hatcher, Ratliff and prior year's draft picks Crawford and Wilber. They also had Bass who they thought would make the roster.

Dating back to the infamous 2009 draft, we've been able to get only 1 legitimate starter on defense and that was Sean Lee who is injured this year...

By my calculations and theorizing you need to get at least 4-5 legitimate starters within a 4 year period in order to field a legitimate cost effective defense. We have 1 guy in the last 6 years, and that guy is injured...

Number of day 1 (1st to 3rd round) players selected in the last 4 years on defense?

FIVE...

So in order to hit on 4-5 players in the last 4 years, we would almost certainly have to have hit on all these players, but more striking is our inability to hit on players late on defense. The last late round draft pick to become a steady contributor on defense was Orlando Scandrick back in 2008...

So yes, the front office has completely failed when it comes to defense, and it doesn't helped that we've changed schemes on defense so many times in just a few years.

Zimmer-Parcells-Phillips-Ryan-Kiffin/Marinneli....

Which is another failure on the part of the front office.

 

[xwalker]

Dating back to the infamous 2009 draft, we've been able to get only 1 legitimate starter on defense and that was Sean Lee who is injured this year...

By my calculations and theorizing you need to get at least 4-5 legitimate starters within a 4 year period in order to field a legitimate cost effective defense. We have 1 guy in the last 6 years, and that guy is injured...

Number of day 1 (1st to 3rd round) players selected in the last 4 years on defense?

FIVE...

So in order to hit on 4-5 players in the last 4 years, we would almost certainly have to have hit on all these players, but more striking is our inability to hit on players late on defense. The last late round draft pick to become a steady contributor on defense was Orlando Scandrick back in 2008...

So yes, the front office has completely failed when it comes to defense, and it doesn't helped that we've changed schemes on defense so many times in just a few years.

Zimmer-Parcells-Phillips-Ryan-Kiffin/Marinneli....

Which is another failure on the part of the front office.

The problem with your cost effective theory is that teams probably look at cost effectiveness of the entire team, not just the defense. If the overall roster is either cost effective or not cost effective, why does it matter how that's divided up between offense and defense?

 

[Galian Beast]

The problem with your cost effective theory is that teams probably look at cost effectiveness of the entire team, not just the defense. If the overall roster is either cost effective or not cost effective, why does it matter how that's divided up between offense and defense?

The reality is that it does matter, because while it is the same team, they are completely seperate. How you balance them is a major factor in how you're able to compete. Budgeting for defense when you're an offensive based team is difficult, and means that you have to hit more on draft picks on defense than you would if you spent more money in general on defense.

If you have a 50-50 split between offense and defense, that generally means that on defense you need to hit on 4-5 players before you have to deal with veteran/2nd contracts (so that's basically a 4 year period). If you spend more on offense than defense it means you have to hit on more drafted players in order to field a succesful defense, because you can spend your way out of it.

I hope that answered your question.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

They should have never signed him to such a fat contract at his age. Yes, they should have realized this was a distinct possibility. He has been showing the signs for 2 seasons. They should have realized this DL was going down hill...

Wait...you wanted us to dump ware in 2011?!?

Yeah....ok...you're just being silly.

 

[DiResta]

Defense this year going to be bad. really bad. Offense going to be very good though so maybe Cowboys win some they shouldntt and lose some the same right? I said before I really think Garrett has a plan to build a strong team but it takes time. It cant be helped not to play in FA when you dont have the money right now. they got to lock up Tyron and Dez so wasting money on big FA means maybe losing one of your 2 best players. both very young players. the guys on the defense are not for the 4-3 defense so lots of holes. many of those holes can be filled on t he cheap though if Sean Lee and Bruce fitted in there that woulda helped. Lee fits right but he need to stay healthy as the leader. they thought they had 3 good cb hell everybody did. that really leaves you needing talented safety play which they feel JJ and Church can do (on the cheap right?) they dont have to be Ed reed tpo be a decent defense.

now that leaves the defense line. Ware was to much money for now same with Hatcher. Both getting older for that big contract. they tried to grab Lawrence after getting offense guard, now the offense line is pretty complete I would guess next year best pass rusher or defense linemen. maybe grab stud FA if they can . thats gonna make the defense much better.

 

[Setackin]

Wait...you wanted us to dump ware in 2011?!?

Yeah....ok...you're just being silly.

No, I wanted them resign him without breaking the bank.

 

[xwalker]

The reality is that it does matter, because while it is the same team, they are completely seperate. How you balance them is a major factor in how you're able to compete. Budgeting for defense when you're an offensive based team is difficult, and means that you have to hit more on draft picks on defense than you would if you spent more money in general on defense.

If you have a 50-50 split between offense and defense, that generally means that on defense you need to hit on 4-5 players before you have to deal with veteran/2nd contracts (so that's basically a 4 year period). If you spend more on offense than defense it means you have to hit on more drafted players in order to field a succesful defense, because you can spend your way out of it.

I hope that answered your question.

No, the salary cap only applies to the overall team. If you find some bargains on offense then you can overspend on defense.

Let's say the in order to be cost effective that you need 8 starters to be on their original rookie contracts each season. It does not matter if those 8 players are 4 on offense and 4 on defense or 8 on offense and zero on defense.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

No, I wanted them resign him without breaking the bank.

So at age 29....coming off a pro bowl, first team all pro and Butkus award...you think Ware could have been signed cheaply?

Go back to Madden.

 

[xwalker]

No, I wanted them resign him without breaking the bank.

That was not going to happen unless you're major Nelson.

 

[Setackin]

So at age 29....coming off a pro bowl, first team all pro and Butkus award...you think Ware could have been signed cheaply?

Go back to Madden.

I didn't say cheaply either... stop quoting me til u can read, without making assumptions, and not trying to put word in my mouth...