Trade Barber for a NT

[Wrangler87]

Well, I wouldn't trade Barber at this point either. But I certainly agree with you about the NT position. One of my biggest needs during this offseason was a real run stopping NT and to move Rafliff outside. The Cowboys did not address it, and it is showing already. Say what you want about the ILB's not doing their share, but it was obvious on several runs that Ratliff and Savii were being pushed sideways, completely out of the play, leaving huge holes for the TB running backs to hit. The NT's job is to hold his ground and take up a couple of lineman so that the LB's can fill the hole, making the hole either non-existent or as small as possible not allowing the RB the ability to cut. Problem is, Ratliff and Savii were being moved completely out of the hole which allowed TB's RBs too much room to run and then cut on the ILB.

Don't think for a second that every team we play this year will not use this game as a blueprint.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I think the big problem was that our gap responsibility was poor yesterday. Ends were taking outside lanes when they should have gone inside, ILBs were nowhere to be found.

Even if trading Barber for a NT wasn't a phenomenally stupid idea, I don't think it would solve the problem - i.e. getting a bigger NT isn't going to make our defensive ends play the right gap.

Yep. That's about the size of it.

 

[5Stars]

Yesterday's game brought in a fresh perspective on Dallas's run D. They got away with not have a true NT last year because Ratliff is so hard to block he often forces the double team. However, it looks like Dallas needs a big body to clog those running lanes. Is there anyone out there worth trading for? Barber is a good running back, but I feel that Choice is a much better all around back. With Choice and Jones carrying the load, the running game won't suffer too much. However, if teams continue to run up the gut on Dallas, Ratliff could be in for a long season. Is there anyone out there worth bringing in??

Hey...let's trade him for not one NT...but three NT's? Or, even four NT"S!


:wink2:

 

[JBond]

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Why in the hell would you trade your most productive back yesterday? My goodness. Look, the Cowboys underachieved on defense yesterday. They're capable of better. Goodness. There are about 2 NT's that are better than Ratliff in this league and that's Casey Hampton and Haynesworth who btw sucked yesterday. Maybe a motivated Shaun Rogers. Point is, Ratliff is probably the best available option out there and you have him. He's the youngest and one of the most productive.

 

[kmd24]

Most casual fans have an unreasonable expectation for NT's. Ratliff does a great job.

Haynesworth, who was widely considered the best available defensive tackle in the offseason, spent Sunday getting stone by Seubert, who the Giants left to handle Big Al one-on-one. That is, when Haynesworth wasn't on the sidelines catching his breath from getting owned most of the game. Haynesworth did make a couple of plays, but for the most part looked like Seubert's dancing partner.

Really good 3-4 noses don't come around all that often, and those that do won't be had for a middle-of-the-pack running backs, who are a dime a dozen. I don't say that to bash Barber. I like him as a player, but if you think that he can be replaced by Choice, realize that most other teams have a guy who can turn in a Choice-like performance, but they'd be hard pressed to find someone to replace a starting nose tackle.

 

[Four]

Choice is quickly becoming the most over rated player on this team.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Choice is quickly becoming the most over rated player on this team.

I understand it though. He did what no one else could last season. He gave it to the Giants and Steelers defenses. He deserves praise. But good luck trading Barber in favor of him. I just can't agree with it for the simple fact I need to see more.

 

[Dallas]

WUT ??

 

[Wrangler87]

Most casual fans have an unreasonable expectation for NT's. Ratliff does a great job.

Haynesworth, who was widely considered the best available defensive tackle in the offseason, spent Sunday getting stone by Seubert, who the Giants left to handle Big Al one-on-one. That is, when Haynesworth wasn't on the sidelines catching his breath from getting owned most of the game. Haynesworth did make a couple of plays, but for the most part looked like Seubert's dancing partner.

Really good 3-4 noses don't come around all that often, and those that do won't be had for a middle-of-the-pack running backs, who are a dime a dozen. I don't say that to bash Barber. I like him as a player, but if you think that he can be replaced by Choice, realize that most other teams have a guy who can turn in a Choice-like performance, but they'd be hard pressed to find someone to replace a starting nose tackle.

Ratliff has played some good ball for us. That being said, yesterday was not one of those games. The Bucs O-line owned Ratliff most of the game. He was either knocked onto the ground, or driven sideways completely out of the hole, often by one blocker. In the first half, the Bucs seemed to have decided that they could take advantage of the fact that Ratliff is basically a 4-3 DT playing NT in a 3-4. It worked and I really expect the Giants to follow suit, with even more success. I hate to beat a dead horse, but my number one off season priority was to acquire a 350 pound NT to anchor the line of scrimmage, and to move Ratliff to DE. I think we are only just starting to see where teams plan on attacking us.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

So if Ratliff is a top 3 nose tackle in this league who did you want to replace him with and move him to DE this offseason for? There was no one out there lol.

 

[kmd24]

Ratliff has played some good ball for us. That being said, yesterday was not one of those games. The Bucs O-line owned Ratliff most of the game. He was either knocked onto the ground, or driven sideways completely out of the hole, often by one blocker. In the first half, the Bucs seemed to have decided that they could take advantage of the fact that Ratliff is basically a 4-3 DT playing NT in a 3-4. It worked and I really expect the Giants to follow suit, with even more success. I hate to beat a dead horse, but my number one off season priority was to acquire a 350 pound NT to anchor the line of scrimmage, and to move Ratliff to DE. I think we are only just starting to see where teams plan on attacking us.

Good info. I haven't done a play-by-play on the DL but plan to.

 

[superpunk]

Ratliff has played some good ball for us. That being said, yesterday was not one of those games. The Bucs O-line owned Ratliff most of the game. He was either knocked onto the ground, or driven sideways completely out of the hole, often by one blocker. In the first half, the Bucs seemed to have decided that they could take advantage of the fact that Ratliff is basically a 4-3 DT playing NT in a 3-4. It worked and I really expect the Giants to follow suit, with even more success. I hate to beat a dead horse, but my number one off season priority was to acquire a 350 pound NT to anchor the line of scrimmage, and to move Ratliff to DE. I think we are only just starting to see where teams plan on attacking us.

Like I said earlier, it could have just been bad gap control, not that Ratliff was being forced anywhere by anyone.

We play single gap, so if Ratliff beats his man, shoots his and forces the cutback, he is expecting an ILB or an end to be waiting there. I suspect that yesterday either the DEs kept taking an outside release or the ILBs were just playing weak. Because I think if you watch it again you'll see a pretty dominating performance from Ratliff at the point of attack, but the rest of the middle played very poorly.

 

[SMCowboy]

Ratliff has played some good ball for us. That being said, yesterday was not one of those games. The Bucs O-line owned Ratliff most of the game. He was either knocked onto the ground, or driven sideways completely out of the hole, often by one blocker. In the first half, the Bucs seemed to have decided that they could take advantage of the fact that Ratliff is basically a 4-3 DT playing NT in a 3-4. It worked and I really expect the Giants to follow suit, with even more success. I hate to beat a dead horse, but my number one off season priority was to acquire a 350 pound NT to anchor the line of scrimmage, and to move Ratliff to DE. I think we are only just starting to see where teams plan on attacking us.

When will you and everyone else that is determined that Ratliff needs to be moved to DE listen.

#1.) It will NOT happen. Ratliff is a Pro Bowl NT, he didn't get voted to the Pro Bowl by not being a dominate NT.

#2.) There is a REASON that Ratliff has been put as a NT, not a DE to begin with, while his quickness for a NT is exceptional and it allows him to create tons of pressure up the middle, his quickness as a DE would be average at best. He would go from being a Pro Bowl NT, to a run of the mill DE most likely.

#3.) Jay Ratliff does NOT want to play DE, he WANTS to play NT.

It amazes me how many people are still not happy despite the fact that we have a Pro Bowl NT, and arguably the best NT in football.

 

[Wrangler87]

So if Ratliff is a top 3 nose tackle in this league who did you want to replace him with and move him to DE this offseason for? There was no one out there lol.

A Nose Tackle does not have to be top anything in this defense. A great NT in this defense may not get a sack all year. He simply has to have great size, and hold up blockers, preferrably more than one. Watch the tape of Sundays game. Ratliff got destroyed on many plays. Because he is playing out of position. Sure, he got some sacks last season and a good handful of tackles for loss. Basically, he did what Spears should be doing. But what he does not do well is hold the line of scrimmage. He doesn't have the size necessary. He is lucky to be 300 pounds. By comparision, Igor, who plays DE, is almost 20 pounds heavier than Ratliff. Ratliff and Spears are about the same size. Most teams that play the 3-4 defense have a starting nose tackle that weighs at least 320 or 330, some as much as 350 or 360. You probably never heard of most of them, which means they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing. Ratliff should be starting in Spears spot and there were plaenty of opportunities to find a 330-350 pound DT to hold up the middle, we simply did not address it. You can say that's not Phillip's scheme, but this is what is going to happen when teams driectly attack Ratliff.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The problem is really one of scheme. I mean, Phillips really ins't interested in the classic 350 pound anchor NT. Phillips wants a guy who can force flow through penatration. Essentiall, he wants the NT position to shoot a gap and force the running play to one side or blow up the play through penatration if the play is called right at the penatration. The ILBs are supposed to have responsability once the flow of the play is, funneled towards the LBs. LBs have to make this play. They can't be trapped or seal blocked out of that play. We could trade for a guy who basically kills all inside running attacks but that effecitively changes how Wade's defense works. That's more of a Parcells type 34 scheme. In that scheme, the inside LBs are bigger, more stout. It's a different scheme, even though it's still a 34.

 

[Vintage]

I think the big problem was that our gap responsibility was poor yesterday. Ends were taking outside lanes when they should have gone inside, ILBs were nowhere to be found.

Even if trading Barber for a NT wasn't a phenomenally stupid idea, I don't think it would solve the problem - i.e. getting a bigger NT isn't going to make our defensive ends play the right gap.

Sure it would. If we had a 600 pound NT, he'd be so fat, it would force the DEs/OLB to stay in the correct gaps, because his fatness would force it so.

 

[Faerluna]

Someone post star trek double facepalm please

http://i33.***BLOCKED***/albums/d57/Faerluna/double-facepalm.jpg

http://i33.***BLOCKED***/albums/d57/Faerluna/worfisfrustratedmz8.gif

http://i33.***BLOCKED***/albums/d57/Faerluna/Ciscofacepalm.gif

 

[Wrangler87]

When will you and everyone else that is determined that Ratliff needs to be moved to DE listen.

#1.) It will NOT happen. Ratliff is a Pro Bowl NT, he didn't get voted to the Pro Bowl by not being a dominate NT.

#2.) There is a REASON that Ratliff has been put as a NT, not a DE to begin with, while his quickness for a NT is exceptional and it allows him to create tons of pressure up the middle, his quickness as a DE would be average at best. He would go from being a Pro Bowl NT, to a run of the mill DE most likely.

#3.) Jay Ratliff does NOT want to play DE, he WANTS to play NT.

It amazes me how many people are still not happy despite the fact that we have a Pro Bowl NT, and arguably the best NT in football.

Yeah, he went to the ProBowl because he made some great plays behind the LOS and had a few sacks to boot. Don't you think that if had done the same thing from the DE position, he would have made the Pro Bowl as well. In fact, he probably made half of those sacks on third down from the DE position.

Fact remains, a NT in this defense has to hold the LOS. He does not do that well, and when he is attacked directly, like he was yesterday, he becomes a weakness on this defense. The Buccaneers figured that out (with a brand new O coordinator) and attacked it. The film does not lie. Why don't you watch it. See how many times Ratliff got owned when he was attacked directly. That may not be Phillips scheme, but I guarantee teams are going to continue to attack our undersized NT regardless of the scheme.

 

[speedkilz88]

I think the big problem was that our gap responsibility was poor yesterday. Ends were taking outside lanes when they should have gone inside, ILBs were nowhere to be found.

Even if trading Barber for a NT wasn't a phenomenally stupid idea, I don't think it would solve the problem - i.e. getting a bigger NT isn't going to make our defensive ends play the right gap.

That's what Keith Brooking said in the locker room interview. Everyone can listen to it in the Cowboy's multimedia center.

Wade is saying in his pc today that they did well against the run when they were in their base defense, but when they tried to blitz they had problems even when it was a run blitz. He said they just didn't get enough work in and guys didn't know their run responsibilities well enough.