Twice this week at my grocery I encounter Gil Brandt .. questions?

[igtmfo]

Hello all. I know Gil is history. I have a spooky encounter with Gil all the time. He lives a block away from me apparently. His barber is my barber, or used to be. I gave him a hard time in 1990 at my barber shop and he said Cowboys should take Darrell Thompson, who was the 19th pick, and did OK, but didn't do too great. Gil didn't think the Cowboys could possibly get Emmitt Smith, though I asked.

I know he's old.

He must be single. Shops for himself. We exchange knowing glances.

Gil did build the Cowboys. Jerry fired him in 1989. Gil was on 105.3 last year and admitted: "Teams caught up with me." From 1960 to the 80s the Cowboys were way ahead (besides the Steelers) - from then on we didn't draft so good.

Tex Schramm and Gil left behind them, though, the best scouts in the NFL, which is why the Boys drafted so good and got us 3 S Bowls. ... Some but not all of you know, that Jerry fired all of our high-profile scouts in 1992, after that draft I think. Let's see if I remember: Dick Mansgerber, Jeff Smith on the college level, Dick Ackles on the pro level. Many more I can't remember.

Just remember all you cats and kitties: Pro sports is a talent acquisition business. That is all it is. Jerry is right that 100 coaches could have coached that early 90s team, apologies to Jimmy.

1) It's not about Ivy Leaguers that win at the track or in Vegas or the NFL draft. It's about unwashed guys that have the knack of doing it. It is a mystery. You have to fire them, until you find them.

2) It is about numbers. In 2009 I think, the new GM of the Toronto Blue Jays a guy named Anthopoulos, said a) "Im going to fire all my scouts" .. b) I will interview them for rehires ... c) Instead of 12-14 regional scouts which was typical of baseball teams back then, got the OK from management to hire 20. .... d) instead of 5-8 crosscheckers, Anthopoulos got the OK to hire 10-12.

Not sure if Anthopoulos has the right idea, we'll see as those prospects come to the MLB, but ...

*IMPORTANT PART BELOW*

After Jerry fired the "best scouts in the NFL" (True, because in part they were Tex's boys and he wanted to be the new daddy and kill the old daddy) .. ahem, anyway ... it was in 1992 because he could save money and because the coaches could *easily find Super Bowl quality players.* ... There are a number of stories from the FW Star-Telegram from these old days I could post at a cost to me to retrieve them, some written by the dude Mike Fisher who is still in media here, but the media was right back then that said: "Jerry, don't fire these guys"

- Jerry, from that point on, never fired a scout until Parcells came in, as far as I can figure. Jerry was too timid and loved them too much (hooray Jerry!) .. Parcells fired Lacewell of course and many others, except a very few legacy scouts, Ciskowski, Hall, Walt Yowarsky and one or two others. Jerry let go the dude you hear on 103.3 ESPN, Stretch Smith, immediately when Parcells was hired, and perhaps Jerry pleaded for a few to be retained. ... Parcells fired Bryan Broaddus, albeit a year later.

- Jerry, as far as I can tell, has not fired a scout that Parcells hired. The enormous bulk of our scouts were hired in 2004-5-6 by Parcells, young guys in their 20s and 30s. They have brought us up from 5-11 to 8-8. ... This is where we are today. These dudes are the dudes that are drafting now. I hope they get better.

My thought is that Jerry has had even a worse record of hiring/firing scouts, than he has hiring/firing coaches.

Maybe we we get a little lucky with Will McClay.

That said, let's go Boys.

 

[xwalker]

Hello all. I know Gil is history. I have a spooky encounter with Gil all the time. He lives a block away from me apparently. His barber is my barber, or used to be. I gave him a hard time in 1990 at my barber shop and he said Cowboys should take Darrell Thompson, who was the 19th pick, and did OK, but didn't do too great. Gil didn't think the Cowboys could possibly get Emmitt Smith, though I asked.

I know he's old.

He must be single. Shops for himself. We exchange knowing glances.

Gil did build the Cowboys. Jerry fired him in 1989. Gil was on 105.3 last year and admitted: "Teams caught up with me." From 1960 to the 80s the Cowboys were way ahead (besides the Steelers) - from then on we didn't draft so good.

Tex Schramm and Gil left behind them, though, the best scouts in the NFL, which is why the Boys drafted so good and got us 3 S Bowls. ... Some but not all of you know, that Jerry fired all of our high-profile scouts in 1992, after that draft I think. Let's see if I remember: Dick Mansgerber, Jeff Smith on the college level, Dick Ackles on the pro level. Many more I can't remember.

Just remember all you cats and kitties: Pro sports is a talent acquisition business. That is all it is. Jerry is right that 100 coaches could have coached that early 90s team, apologies to Jimmy.

1) It's not about Ivy Leaguers that win at the track or in Vegas or the NFL draft. It's about unwashed guys that have the knack of doing it. It is a mystery. You have to fire them, until you find them.

2) It is about numbers. In 2009 I think, the new GM of the Toronto Blue Jays a guy named Anthopoulos, said a) "Im going to fire all my scouts" .. b) I will interview them for rehires ... c) Instead of 12-14 regional scouts which was typical of baseball teams back then, got the OK from management to hire 20. .... d) instead of 5-8 crosscheckers, Anthopoulos got the OK to hire 10-12.

Not sure if Anthopoulos has the right idea, we'll see as those prospects come to the MLB, but ...

*IMPORTANT PART BELOW*

After Jerry fired the "best scouts in the NFL" (True, because in part they were Tex's boys and he wanted to be the new daddy and kill the old daddy) .. ahem, anyway ... it was in 1992 because he could save money and because the coaches could *easily find Super Bowl quality players.* ... There are a number of stories from the FW Star-Telegram from these old days I could post at a cost to me to retrieve them, some written by the dude Mike Fisher who is still in media here, but the media was right back then that said: "Jerry, don't fire these guys"

- Jerry, from that point on, never fired a scout until Parcells came in, as far as I can figure. Jerry was too timid and loved them too much (hooray Jerry!) .. Parcells fired Lacewell of course and many others, except a very few legacy scouts, Ciskowski, Hall, Walt Yowarsky and one or two others. Jerry let go the dude you hear on 103.3 ESPN, Stretch Smith, immediately when Parcells was hired, and perhaps Jerry pleaded for a few to be retained. ... Parcells fired Bryan Broaddus, albeit a year later.

- Jerry, as far as I can tell, has not fired a scout that Parcells hired. The enormous bulk of our scouts were hired in 2004-5-6 by Parcells, young guys in their 20s and 30s. They have brought us up from 5-11 to 8-8. ... This is where we are today. These dudes are the dudes that are drafting now. I hope they get better.

My thought is that Jerry has had even a worse record of hiring/firing scouts, than he has hiring/firing coaches.

Maybe we we get a little lucky with Will McClay.

That said, let's go Boys.

Good post.

The biggest problem with the draft picks in the Parcells era and afterwards has been mental makeup issues. Many of the busts had really good physical ability, but failed due to poor mental makeup.

Bobbie Carpenter and Jacob Rodgers had the physical ability to be good NFL players but didn't like the physicality o the NFL game.

Brewster didn't like football and was lazy.

AOA and Jason Williams were super athletes but could learn coverage schemes.

Arkin was one that didn't have NFL physical ability; although the scouts said that they knew he couldn't play without getting bigger and stronger. He would have been worth a shot in the 7th but not in the 4th. I got the impression that Garrett pushed for that pick because he wanted to move to the Zone Blocking Scheme but still had an OL coach that taught man blocking.

Garrett did start pushing to focus on the mental makeup of players. He even had the team hire an outside company that specializes in these evaluations. They might have let Claiborne slip thought the cracks in that area.

 

[igtmfo]

Thanks xwalker, I meant Bob Ackles, not Dick Ackles.

Scouts spend 200 days a year, in rental cars, nights at Days Inns, families forlorn in Euless or somewhere at only reasonable pay, mother rocking baby until daddy comes home. You feel for them.

But are Cowboys scouts held accountable, other than just a vague grade, like you and me would get at your office, hanging around the water cooler? "They did OK." .. Or like the one Cowboys scout that one time that found Larry Allen (can't remember his name). He found a gem, so he was retained, never to do much better. Other scouts hung around and were not retained, just on water-cooler. Good lord - Jim Garrett. Good lord - Lacewell. It goes on and on.

Does Stephen or Jerry, ask each scout, to turn in his total grades for his region, maybe for his total draft grade for all players ... seeing as how all these scouts spend the last month or two in one room seeing film on all prospects? ... Do you fire, advance, anyone, anytime? .. Ciskowski yes 6-7 years ago OK I guess Parcells and Jeff Ireland did that and advanced him. ... Year to year though, do you grade scouts, hold them accountable?

It is interesting to me. I don't worry about Gavin Escobar (which I do) as much as I worry that BJ Webb was almost a second-round grade last year and he was far-and-away the easiest pick at our point last draft. Pick 114 in the draft. No question about who to pick. 114th pick in the draft and he was like in our second round grade, or early 3rd round grade, every possible player on our board then had been picked two dozen picks before. ... That's what worries me. ... Not so much that we strike out in the 5-6-7 round. BJ Webb. A big failure, looks like.

It is not just Jerry that is reluctant to fire scouts. Mark Cuban keeps dudes around that have got them nothing through the draft forever, except in 1998? when his dad got Dirk. Despite Jon Daniels' best efforts, it is the scouts back in the Grady Fuson/Jon Hart era that were much better than our amateur scouts now. The Rangers' amateur drafts have been pretty poor - only our international draft has got Martin Perez.

Cowboys should spend all efforts at getting more and better scouts - except each year the Cowboys Brain Trust maybe think they can get better by same scouts but by directing efforts at better qualities: Let's just change how we grade players by overall points - OK when you go to college games and assess a grade - we need DTs that grade better at this new criteria, DBs that have a higher grade for each quality speed/shuttle vs. just better on film etc. .. And then the next year it is the opposite, depending on our new coaches.

My fear is that that's what Ciskowski, Will McClay talk about with their scouts: and then they spend the next year looking for guys with somewhat different attributes (although mostly the same names)....

And it all is playing musical chairs.

It's the same scouts. They don't have vision.

OK we're 8-8 scouting. We need better.

 

[xwalker]

I've wondered if watching games in person is really worth the effort. I find it much better to evaluate a player on "film" (game footage), than in person.

I'm not following your comment on Webb. Are you saying that he was a 2nd rounder on the leaked board?

How does a team know which scout on other teams are good? I guess if you hired a Head Coach that had been with another team that he would know the scouts there, but in general it's probably difficult to find the best guys even if you were willing to pay them more.

 

[visionary]

Garrett did start pushing to focus on the mental makeup of players. He even had the team hire an outside company that specializes in these evaluations. They might have let Claiborne slip thought the cracks in that area.

That was not a crack , that was a chasm, a ravine
Whoever signed off on Mo should be fired outright

 

[DFWJC]

Gil Brandt has been wildly wrong on his his talent assessments the last several years, but he really did have his day way back when.

Cool story, nevertheless.

 

[igtmfo]

Sorry to keep talking, but last year on 105.3 Gil Brandt said

"There were years when the 40th pick on our board was an undrafted free agent." (and if I can add, the implication was, many other players only slightly lower than No. 40 on their board were there for the taking).

That was when there were what, 17 rounds. Fewer teams to draft, but still amazing.

That is how far ahead of other teams Gil was. Thank you Gil, Tex, and our wonderful cadre of scouts - the best in the NFL 1965-1992.

 

[xwalker]

That was not a crack , that was a chasm, a ravine
Whoever signed off on Mo should be fired outright

I have a feeling that Garrett and the scouting dept. would not have made that trade and therefore were not prepared to draft him. My guess is that the Rams called Jerry with the trade offer.

 

[Fredd]

I have a feeling that Garrett and the scouting dept. would not have made that trade and therefore were not prepared to draft him. My guess is that the Rams called Jerry with the trade offer.

It wouldn't surprise me if they already called JJ again....if I am the rams, I am not sure if I use my first 3 picks or try to have a REALLY impressive draft by making a few moves...do you take robinson with the #2 overall (assumes either a QB, Mack or Clowney goes #1) and then take a DB with the #13 or if you get robinson, do you then trade back a little and pick up more? they are in the cat-bird seat if you ask me....then, they get a 2nd rounder of course...
...wish we had their picks this year.....(oh well)

 

[jobberone]

Gil Brandt has been wildly wrong on his his talent assessments the last several years, but he really did have his day way back when.

Cool story, nevertheless.

He also had a lot of misses some colossal. I'm a huge fan but he's not a god.

 

[burmafrd]

He also had a lot of misses some colossal. I'm a huge fan but he's not a god.

considering the best teams barely hit on 40% of their picks no one is a god as regards the draft.

 

[burmafrd]

Hello all. I know Gil is history. I have a spooky encounter with Gil all the time. He lives a block away from me apparently. His barber is my barber, or used to be. I gave him a hard time in 1990 at my barber shop and he said Cowboys should take Darrell Thompson, who was the 19th pick, and did OK, but didn't do too great. Gil didn't think the Cowboys could possibly get Emmitt Smith, though I asked.

I know he's old.

He must be single. Shops for himself. We exchange knowing glances.

Gil did build the Cowboys. Jerry fired him in 1989. Gil was on 105.3 last year and admitted: "Teams caught up with me." From 1960 to the 80s the Cowboys were way ahead (besides the Steelers) - from then on we didn't draft so good.

Tex Schramm and Gil left behind them, though, the best scouts in the NFL, which is why the Boys drafted so good and got us 3 S Bowls. ... Some but not all of you know, that Jerry fired all of our high-profile scouts in 1992, after that draft I think. Let's see if I remember: Dick Mansgerber, Jeff Smith on the college level, Dick Ackles on the pro level. Many more I can't remember.

Just remember all you cats and kitties: Pro sports is a talent acquisition business. That is all it is. Jerry is right that 100 coaches could have coached that early 90s team, apologies to Jimmy.

1) It's not about Ivy Leaguers that win at the track or in Vegas or the NFL draft. It's about unwashed guys that have the knack of doing it. It is a mystery. You have to fire them, until you find them.

2) It is about numbers. In 2009 I think, the new GM of the Toronto Blue Jays a guy named Anthopoulos, said a) "Im going to fire all my scouts" .. b) I will interview them for rehires ... c) Instead of 12-14 regional scouts which was typical of baseball teams back then, got the OK from management to hire 20. .... d) instead of 5-8 crosscheckers, Anthopoulos got the OK to hire 10-12.

Not sure if Anthopoulos has the right idea, we'll see as those prospects come to the MLB, but ...

*IMPORTANT PART BELOW*

After Jerry fired the "best scouts in the NFL" (True, because in part they were Tex's boys and he wanted to be the new daddy and kill the old daddy) .. ahem, anyway ... it was in 1992 because he could save money and because the coaches could *easily find Super Bowl quality players.* ... There are a number of stories from the FW Star-Telegram from these old days I could post at a cost to me to retrieve them, some written by the dude Mike Fisher who is still in media here, but the media was right back then that said: "Jerry, don't fire these guys"

- Jerry, from that point on, never fired a scout until Parcells came in, as far as I can figure. Jerry was too timid and loved them too much (hooray Jerry!) .. Parcells fired Lacewell of course and many others, except a very few legacy scouts, Ciskowski, Hall, Walt Yowarsky and one or two others. Jerry let go the dude you hear on 103.3 ESPN, Stretch Smith, immediately when Parcells was hired, and perhaps Jerry pleaded for a few to be retained. ... Parcells fired Bryan Broaddus, albeit a year later.

- Jerry, as far as I can tell, has not fired a scout that Parcells hired. The enormous bulk of our scouts were hired in 2004-5-6 by Parcells, young guys in their 20s and 30s. They have brought us up from 5-11 to 8-8. ... This is where we are today. These dudes are the dudes that are drafting now. I hope they get better.

My thought is that Jerry has had even a worse record of hiring/firing scouts, than he has hiring/firing coaches.

Maybe we we get a little lucky with Will McClay.

That said, let's go Boys.

now you would think scouts would be the easiest people to grade of all. Just look at their reccomendations three years or so after each draft year and see how right and wrong they were.

 

[burmafrd]

Good post.

The biggest problem with the draft picks in the Parcells era and afterwards has been mental makeup issues. Many of the busts had really good physical ability, but failed due to poor mental makeup.

Bobbie Carpenter and Jacob Rodgers had the physical ability to be good NFL players but didn't like the physicality o the NFL game.

Brewster didn't like football and was lazy.

AOA and Jason Williams were super athletes but could learn coverage schemes.

Arkin was one that didn't have NFL physical ability; although the scouts said that they knew he couldn't play without getting bigger and stronger. He would have been worth a shot in the 7th but not in the 4th. I got the impression that Garrett pushed for that pick because he wanted to move to the Zone Blocking Scheme but still had an OL coach that taught man blocking.

Garrett did start pushing to focus on the mental makeup of players. He even had the team hire an outside company that specializes in these evaluations. They might have let Claiborne slip thought the cracks in that area.

Barbie had as impeccable a pedigree as you could ask for; considered one of the safest picks in the draft. Just happens sometimes
Rogers is ALL on BP - the scouts questioned his motivation but BP wanted him.

 

[starfrombirth]

In the "5 Myths of the Cowboys" thread this draft myth is discussed and he completely takes apart the idea that we haven't been able to draft well lately. We have been among the tops for the last 10 years as far as finding solid draft picks.