Twitter: Tyron Smith and Zach Martin named to Pro football HOF 2010s All-Decade Team

OmerV

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So Ware and Witten both got left out of either 2000's or 2010's team......
One of the flaws in naming this kind of All Decade team is that player's can get overlooked when the heart of their careers straddles 2 decades. Ware and Witten, for example, had many of their best years late in the 2000's, and early in the 2010's, so they weren't at their best throughout the bulk of either decade.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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One of the flaws in naming this kind of All Decade team is that player's can get overlooked when the heart of their careers straddles 2 decades. Ware and Witten, for example, had many of their best years late in the 2000's, and early in the 2010's, so they weren't at their best throughout the bulk of either decade.
Yeah I do agree but I think I was wrong in this. Ware made it as DE and Witten couldn’t get in over Gates and Gonzales......
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Hard to argue against Pounce given all the honors, plus he played the entire decade, and Frederick missed 4 years of it.

Not hard for me. I don't like Pounce. You are reading into things with this post. I never said Frederick should be the pick there. I just said I don't agree with Pounce. Pounce, to me, is there because he plays for the Steelers. Not because he is dominating at the position. For the record, I do believe Fredbeard was better then Pounce but if I were going to pick a Center, I'd take Kahil, Kelce or even Mangold over Pounce.
 

OmerV

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Not hard for me. I don't like Pounce. You are reading into things with this post. I never said Frederick should be the pick there. I just said I don't agree with Pounce. Pounce, to me, is there because he plays for the Steelers. Not because he is dominating at the position. For the record, I do believe Fredbeard was better then Pounce but if I were going to pick a Center, I'd take Kahil, Kelce or even Mangold over Pounce.
Pouncey was elected to the Pro-Bowl 9 out of the 10 years in the decade, only missing one year because of injury, and All Pro 7 years, twice 1st team. Overall a pretty substantial resume.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Pouncey is better than Frederick, just that there is a legitimate case for him. I think what throws him over the top is that he played every year of the decade, and Frederick only played 6 years, although Pouncey missed almost all of one of those seasons, so it's probably more accurate to say 9 years vs. 6. I'm not saying that's fair, but my guess is that plays into voters minds.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Pouncey has been elected to the Pro-Bowl 9 out of the 10 years in the decade, and All-Pro twice. Overall a pretty good resume.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Pouncey is better than Frederick, just that there is a legitimate case for him. I think what throws him over the top is that he played every year of the decade, and Frederick only played 6 years. I'm not saying that's fair, but my guess is that plays into voters minds.

Yeah, he always goes to the Pro Bowl because he plays for the Steelers but look at All Pro selections. All of the Centers I named, all of those guys are better then Pouncey IMO. Not even close, to be honest. Mangold was hands down better IMO. Problem with Mangold is that his career split two decades but he was way better then even Mack IMO.
 

OmerV

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Yeah, he always goes to the Pro Bowl because he plays for the Steelers but look at All Pro selections. All of the Centers I named, all of those guys are better then Pouncey IMO. Not even close, to be honest. Mangold was hands down better IMO. Problem with Mangold is that his career split two decades but he was way better then even Mack IMO.
It's not just the Pro-Bowl, it's 7 times All Pro in the decade, and might well have been more without injuries. And while being a Steeler may help, nobody gets that many All-Pro and Pro Bowl honors strictly because they play for a particular team. There has to be something to base it on even if being a Steeler gives him a boost, which I'm not sure if it does or not. With the Pro-Bowl, obviously fans can be influenced, but players and coaches make up 2/3 of the Pro Bowl voting, and it stands to reason they wouldn't vote in someone they felt was sub par. Other Steelers don't get anything close to that kind of recognition, including very good players.

In the interest of fairness, I did catch something I missed before. It looks like he missed all of the 2015 season on top of most of the 2013 season. Accordingly, he made Pro Bowl 7 of 8 healthy years rather than 8 of 9. But on the other side, it means he only missed All Pro once instead of twice.
 

Tussinman

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What's with the Pouncey hate ? I've seen 2 other forums where users have been angry that he got in

I'm not understanding it ? He had BY FAR the best resume of any of the centers and is literally the ONLY CENTER in the entire decade that actually has a chance of making Canton

Can someone fill me in on this mystery ?
 

ABQCOWBOY

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It's not just the Pro-Bowl, it's 7 times All Pro in the decade, and might well have been more without injuries. And while being a Steeler may help, nobody gets that many All-Pro and Pro Bowl honors strictly because they play for a particular team. There has to be something to base it on even if being a Steeler gives him a boost, which I'm not sure if it does or not. With the Pro-Bowl, obviously fans can be influenced, but players and coaches make up 2/3 of the Pro Bowl voting, and it stands to reason they wouldn't vote in someone they felt was sub par. Other Steelers don't get anything close to that kind of recognition, including very good players.

In the interest of fairness, I did catch something I missed before. It looks like he missed all of the 2015 season on top of most of the 2013 season. Accordingly, he made Pro Bowl 7 of 8 healthy years rather than 8 of 9. But on the other side, it means he only missed All Pro once instead of twice.

Look, if you like that guy, that's fine. I watched them all. I don't like Pouncey. I like all of those other guys better. I don't really think Pouncey is all that good but if you like him, cool. But I know what I've seen and to me, all those guys were better.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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What's with the Pouncey hate ? I've seen 2 other forums where users have been angry that he got in

I'm not understanding it ? He had BY FAR the best resume of any of the centers and is literally the ONLY CENTER in the entire decade that actually has a chance of making Canton

Can someone fill me in on this mystery ?

In a nut shell, lots of folks who actually played OL or coached OL don't like Pouncey, a lot of times. Lots of people, including myself, believe that he gets voted in because he plays for the Steelers.

Mack and Mangold both have really good shots to be HOF Centers BTW.
 

OmerV

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Look, if you like that guy, that's fine. I watched them all. I don't like Pouncey. I like all of those other guys better. I don't really think Pouncey is all that good but if you like him, cool. But I know what I've seen and to me, all those guys were better.
It's not a matter of liking, it's just being reasonable about the fact that he has earned his consideration for the All-Decade team. I would prefer it be Frederick myself, and there is nothing wrong if you feel Pouncey is overrated, but to act as if all his credentials and accolades are only because he is a Steeler is a head scratcher. I frankly can't say I spend significant time closely watching and evaluating centers around the league. Does anyone really do that other than people who's job it is to do that?
 

Tussinman

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In a nut shell, lots of folks who actually played OL or coached OL don't like Pouncey, a lot of times. Lots of people, including myself, believe that he gets voted in because he plays for the Steelers
Right but this opinion is so unreasonable that it's going to be hard to defend. Dude has like 8x pro bowls and has been on the all-pro team 5x, you can't discredit that as luck or being popular.

Mack and Mangold both have really good shots to be HOF Centers BTW.
There chances are literally zero. Interior offensive line is the hardest position to make Canton. If you don't have freak numbers like 10x pro bowl or 5+ all-pros then your chances are zip (neither have anywhere close to the resume you need).

Go looke at Alan Faneca and Kevin Mawae. There resume's destroy both Mack and Mangold and yet both are STILL strugggling to get enshirement (Faneca is on his 6th year being elgible and Kevin just finally got voted in which is insane considering he has 5 more first team all-pros then both Mack and Mangold COMBINED)
 

ABQCOWBOY

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It's not a matter of liking, it's just being reasonable about the fact that he has earned his consideration for the All-Decade team. I would prefer it be Frederick myself, and there is nothing wrong if you feel Pouncey is overrated, but to act as if all his credentials and accolades are only because he is a Steeler is a head scratcher. I frankly can't say I spend significant time closely watching and evaluating centers around the league. Does anyone really do that other than people who's job it is to do that?

Who says it's not? Again, if that's not your opinion, that's fine but it's not everybodies. It's definitely not mine. What in the world could be more reasonable then watching a player and evaluating him on what you see? What in the world is more fair or reasonable then that? There are a lot of very knowledgeable, very experienced people on this board, capable of watching players and understand what they are seeing. I don't like Pouncey, I don't think he's all that good. I think other players were definitely better.

I don't think Fredbeard should be that guy either. I've already told you who I thought the best Center was. It's really not close and I don't understand how anybody would really argue the point. Mangold was much better IMO.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Right but this opinion is so unreasonable that it's going to be hard to defend. Dude has like 8x pro bowls and has been on the all-pro team 5x, you can't discredit that as luck or being popular.

There chances are literally zero. Interior offensive line is the hardest position to make Canton. If you don't have freak numbers like 10x pro bowl or 5+ all-pros then your chances are zip (neither have anywhere close to the resume you need).

Go looke at Alan Faneca and Kevin Mawae. There resume's destroy both Mack and Mangold and yet both are STILL strugggling to get enshirement (Faneca is on his 6th year being elgible and Kevin just finally got voted in which is insane considering he has 5 more first team all-pros then both Mack and Mangold COMBINED)

Why is it unreasonable? Watch the players, break them down. Pouncey is not that good. But, as I have said before, if you don't agree, that's fine. That's your opinion but then why do you say you don't understand if you are suggesting that you have broken these players down? Clearly you do have some kind of understanding so why act as if you don't understand? Makes no sense.

What you suggest about Centers getting into the Hall is more about the position and not about the quality of the players. So any center has less chance of getting in then say a QB but doesn't mean that, in terms of the position, a Mangold or a Mack do not have a good chance to get in. It may take longer but it doesn't mean that they don't have a good chance.
 

OmerV

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Who says it's not? Again, if that's not your opinion, that's fine but it's not everybodies. It's definitely not mine. What in the world could be more reasonable then watching a player and evaluating him on what you see? What in the world is more fair or reasonable then that? There are a lot of very knowledgeable, very experienced people on this board, capable of watching players and understand what they are seeing. I don't like Pouncey, I don't think he's all that good. I think other players were definitely better.

I don't think Fredbeard should be that guy either. I've already told you who I thought the best Center was. It's really not close and I don't understand how anybody would really argue the point. Mangold was much better IMO.
lol - I say it's not, and since we are talking about me I would be the ultimate authority on that topic.

I agree we can have different opinions, but there are reasonable ones and far out ones. Reasonable would be to say Pouncey is overrated. Unreasonable would be to say he has no legitimate credentials for consideration for the All Decade team and doesn't deserve any of his accolades and only gets them because he is a Steeler. Again, being a Steeler may (or may not) help him, but it doesn't explain away being both All-Pro and Pro Bowl almost every season. Why aren't other Steelers getting those kinds of accolades?

And remember, you responded to me saying you could argue against Pouncey being considered for the All Decade team, so it's natural that would lead to a discussion. And for the record, if you had merely said you think he is overrated and others are better, I wouldn't have said much about it, but it's the contention that his status is built solely on being Steeler … that seems to me to go well beyond simply saying he gets a little benefit from being a Steeler. That almost seems like saying either the coaches and players and writers are all conspiring to give props to the Steelers center, or at least that everyone, including coaches, players and writers, are completely blinded by Pouncey being the center for the Steelers. Either of those seems a big reach to me.

Of course watching a player matters, but do you really spend significant time watching Pouncey closely and evaluating his game week in and week out, and then doing the same with other centers around the league? Come on, obviously we all have impressions, but, again, who really does that with centers other than people paid to do it?
 

Tussinman

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Why is it unreasonable? Watch the players, break them down. Pouncey is not that good. But, as I have said before, if you don't agree, that's fine. That's your opinion but then why do you say you don't understand if you are suggesting that you have broken these players down? Clearly you do have some kind of understanding so why act as if you don't understand? Makes no sense.
Coaches, media, and players literally vote Pouncey to the pro bowl, all-pro team, and NFL top 100 every single year. Where is this magical breakdown that he's not good when literally EVERYONE is saying he is ? (you got a link of this breakdown of Pouncey not being elite ?)
It may take longer but it doesn't mean that they don't have a good chance.
There chances are literally zero. There logged jammed in the very good but nothing elite or spectacular.

There accolades are literally a dime a dozen (Alex Mack, Ryan Kalil, Andrew Gurode, Olin Kreutz, Jeff Saturday, and Nick Mangold are all mostly interchangeable). Being a dime a dozen isn't hall of fame
 

Tussinman

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I agree we can have different opinions, but there are reasonable ones and far out ones. Reasonable would be to say Pouncey is overrated. Unreasonable would be to say he has no legitimate credentials for consideration for the All Decade team and doesn't deserve any of his accolades and only gets them because he is a Steeler. Again, being a Steeler may (or may not) help him, but it doesn't explain away being both All-Pro and Pro Bowl almost every season. Why aren't other Steelers getting those kinds of accolades?
his status is built solely on being Steeler … that seems to me to go well beyond simply saying he gets a little benefit from being a Steeler. That almost seems like saying either the coaches and players and writers are all conspiring to give props to the Steelers center, or at least that everyone, including coaches, players and writers, are completely blinded by Pouncey being the center for the Steelers. Either of those seems a big reach to me.
:hammer:
 

ABQCOWBOY

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lol - I say it's not, and since we are talking about me I would be the ultimate authority on that topic.

I agree we can have different opinions, but there are reasonable ones and far out ones. Reasonable would be to say Pouncey is overrated. Unreasonable would be to say he has no legitimate credentials for consideration for the All Decade team and doesn't deserve any of his accolades and only gets them because he is a Steeler. Again, being a Steeler may (or may not) help him, but it doesn't explain away being both All-Pro and Pro Bowl almost every season. Why aren't other Steelers getting those kinds of accolades?

And remember, you responded to me saying you could argue against Pouncey being considered for the All Decade team, so it's natural that would lead to a discussion. And for the record, if you had merely said you think he is overrated and others are better, I wouldn't have said much about it, but it's the contention that his status is built solely on being Steeler … that seems to me to go well beyond simply saying he gets a little benefit from being a Steeler. That almost seems like saying either the coaches and players and writers are all conspiring to give props to the Steelers center, or at least that everyone, including coaches, players and writers, are completely blinded by Pouncey being the center for the Steelers. Either of those seems a big reach to me.

Of course watching a player matters, but do you really spend significant time watching Pouncey closely and evaluating his game week in and week out, and then doing the same with other centers around the league? Come on, obviously we all have impressions, but, again, who really does that with centers other than people paid to do it?

Yes, I used to coach OL, at one point. I do break down players and technique. Do I do that every week? No, I don't have access to all the necessary video to do that and frankly, the last couple of years, I don't really watch as much football as I used to but I do know this player. I've watched him since he was at Florida. I actually liked him when he came out but over the years, he's not as good as other Centers I've seen in the decade IMO.

So that's as honest an answer as I can give. If you like the guy better, cool. But you just said you've never broken the player down so I don't know how you can fault me for my opinion when you admit you have never broken down any of these players.

Whatever, if your opinion is that he is an all decade Center, cool. I think there were other's who were better.
 
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