Want to ask an honest question about Jerry

[bbgun]

Who besides Jerry and Lord Vader in Oakland are owner/GMs? Bowlen in Denver?

 

[Bach]

Originally Posted by Bach
I don't think Bill is the end-all-be-all. But I see he took over a terrible team stuck in a 5-11 rut and he ended up with three winning seasons in four years.

Actually, you do think Bill is the end-all-be-all. He had an average record, with plenty of salary cap space and plenty of draft picks.

But hey, I'm sure your satisfied with him righting the ship by bringing in Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Aaron Glenn, Keyshawn Johnson, Richie Anderson and a bunch of other aging veterans to churn out that average play.

khiladi, you might want to do a little research before you spew any more garbage.

from 2006:

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1082138&postcount=10

 

[Hostile]

Who besides Jerry and Lord Vader in Oakland are owner/GMs? Bowlen in Denver?

Actually only Jerry.

 

[khiladi]

khiladi, you might want to do a little research before you spew any more garbage.

from 2006:

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1082138&postcount=10

What does that have to do with your statement about Bill 'righting the ship'?

 

[Bach]

What does that have to do with your statement about Bill 'righting the ship'?

Try reading the first line of my original post that starts with "I don't think Bill is the end-all-be-all." And then read the first line I quoted from you. And then read the post in the link from over a year ago.

Then take 1+1 and if my calculations are correct, YOU will probably get 3, but that's besides the point.


As for 'righting the ship', again, since you seem to be another one who can't comprehend things the first time, 3 winning seasons in 4 years is vastly superior to the 5-11, 5-11, 5-11 that immediately preceded Bill's arrival.

That, my friend, is called righting the ship.

 

[khiladi]

Try reading the first line of my original post that starts with "I don't think Bill is the end-all-be-all." And then read the first line I quoted from you. And then read the post in the link from over a year ago.

Then take 1+1 and if my calculations are correct, YOU will probably get 3, but that's besides the point.


As for 'righting the ship', again, since you seem to be another one who can't comprehend things the first time, 3 winning seasons in 4 years is vastly superior to the 5-11, 5-11, 5-11 that immediately preceded Bill's arrival.

That, my friend, is called righting the ship.

No, I still don't get it, and that is not righting the ship, as I explained many times to you, which you conveniently gloss over. His total record here was close to .500, and that is average ball. His best season was his first year, when they didn't even run a 3-4 defense. How is that righting the ship? That speaks of a downward trend, his first 3 years.

His best season was when he didn't even stamp his blueprint on the team. They were running a 4-3 his first year.

He brought in all veterans of the past to contribute to his average record. How is that righting the ship? Your picking up players that are on the verge of retirement to win you a couple of games that are totally irrelevant, because your not even sniffing the play-offs. He wouldn't have sniffed them last year if Romo didn't save his season, or JJ didn't bring in TO.

Please....

 

[CF74]

Actually, you do think Bill is the end-all-be-all. He had an average record, with plenty of salary cap space and plenty of draft picks.

But hey, I'm sure your satisfied with him righting the ship by bringing in Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Aaron Glenn, Keyshawn Johnson, Richie Anderson and a bunch of other aging veterans to churn out that average play. Tell me, how do you right the ship by bringing in veteran players that are on the verge of retirement? Peerless Price... Man, that guy was a keeper.

You want to add all those impressive 'victories' and 'records' that didn't go anywhere in the 'proof-bucket' that he righted the ship? Not to mention, Bill jumping ship at 9-7. The guy probably left because he was trying to save face, because he thought this team was going in the toilet. I love the picture of Bill on the sidelines against the Giants and Carolina. The guy looked clueless. Thank the lucky stars Tony Romo came in to make the last season of Parcells look somewhat respectable.

I guess when you bring in age-old veterans, you can improve to average, but calling that righting the ship... that's just laughable. That is more akin to, let me get some extra useless wins. How about that regressing Roy, during that 4 year tenure of Bill? Was that righting the ship? But yeah, blame Jacques Reeves and Nate Jones on Wade Phillips and Jerry. Ironic, that the reason we even lost the play-off game was because Jacques Reeves couldn't cover... And that impressive display of OL coaching by Tony Sparano... I've never seen an OL fold so bad in a second-half of play...

Your statistical comparison blows chunks.

I'm optimistic with Wade, and 13-3. I prefer TO, and Leonaad Davis, and Ken Hamlin. I prefer a Braide James that lost 10 pounds, and was no longer asked to take on LBs. I prefer Hudson Houck, Dave Campo, and now, probably Dom Capers then that coaching staff we had...

Solid post, rack him!!!

 

[Bach]

No, I still don't get it, and that is not righting the ship, as I explained many times to you, which you conveniently gloss over. His total record here was close to .500, and that is average ball. His best season was his first year, when they didn't even run a 3-4 defense. How is that righting the ship? That speaks of a downward trend, his first 3 years.

His best season was when he didn't even stamp his blueprint on the team. They were running a 4-3 his first year.

He brought in all veterans of the past to contribute to his average record. How is that righting the ship? Your picking up players that are on the verge of retirement to win you a couple of games that are totally irrelevant, because your not even sniffing the play-offs. He wouldn't have sniffed them last year if Romo didn't save his season, or JJ didn't bring in TO.

Please....

Pre-Parcells 5-11, 5-11, 5-11

Parcells: 10-6, 6-10, 9-7, 9-7

Yeah, I see the downward trend now. :laugh2:

 

[Dave_in-NC]

Actually, you do think Bill is the end-all-be-all. He had an average record, with plenty of salary cap space and plenty of draft picks.

But hey, I'm sure your satisfied with him righting the ship by bringing in Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Aaron Glenn, Keyshawn Johnson, Richie Anderson and a bunch of other aging veterans to churn out that average play. Tell me, how do you right the ship by bringing in veteran players that are on the verge of retirement? Peerless Price... Man, that guy was a keeper.

You want to add all those impressive 'victories' and 'records' that didn't go anywhere in the 'proof-bucket' that he righted the ship? Not to mention, Bill jumping ship at 9-7. The guy probably left because he was trying to save face, because he thought this team was going in the toilet. I love the picture of Bill on the sidelines against the Giants and Carolina. The guy looked clueless. Thank the lucky stars Tony Romo came in to make the last season of Parcells look somewhat respectable.

I guess when you bring in age-old veterans, you can improve to average, but calling that righting the ship... that's just laughable. That is more akin to, let me get some extra useless wins. How about that regressing Roy, during that 4 year tenure of Bill? Was that righting the ship? But yeah, blame Jacques Reeves and Nate Jones on Wade Phillips and Jerry. Ironic, that the reason we even lost the play-off game was because Jacques Reeves couldn't cover... And that impressive display of OL coaching by Tony Sparano... I've never seen an OL fold so bad in a second-half of play...

Your statistical comparison blows chunks.

I'm optimistic with Wade, and 13-3. I prefer TO, and Leonaad Davis, and Ken Hamlin. I prefer a Braide James that lost 10 pounds, and was no longer asked to take on LBs. I prefer Hudson Houck, Dave Campo, and now, probably Dom Capers then that coaching staff we had...

So Parcells improves the talent on the team tenfold all while keeping us in great cap shape and you complain?

 

[Royal Laegotti]

We all know that Jerry has made mistakes in the past. Some more costly then others. However, Jerry does not and has never struck me as a stupid man. Thinking back, can anybody remember Jerry making the same mistakes twice? I can't really remember that too much. My memory of things is not as good as it once was. If anybody can remember him repeating mistakes, can you outline them?

I just have a real hard time believing that Jerry is going to trade the farm for McFadden and I'm wondering if maybe we are being too hard on Jerry Jones over something that he may not have any intentions of doing.

Jethro is the GM of this team year after year, that seems to be a recurring mistake.

But hey what do I know? Since their last superbowl win the Cowboys have either choked or sucked!

 

[windward]

If this topic could be kept off the extremes it could be a pretty good one with a large amount of agreement.

I think most folks here probably agree on the following.

1. Jimmy and Bill are the best two HC's, and HC personnel guys we've had during Jones era.
2. The personnel moves post Jimmy and pre Bill were below average overall. Embarrassing some years, okay in others like 1998 (6th) & 2002 (6th?).
3. Bill and Jerry each had some say in the personnel moves from 2003 - 2006. Its not all Bill, its not all Jerry. Per the rumors about TO, Eddie George, Ware vs Merrimen, Newman vs Kevin Williams, etc.
4. It takes cap $, higher draft picks and some luck to have a great offseason, ie the offseason playing field was not even during all of Jerry Jones years.

From the above, doesn't it also stand to reason that...

1. Larry Lacewell didn't have final GM say on personnel anymore than Bill Parcells did, ie Jerry had influence in both.
2. The degree of difficulty for the Lacewell/Jones drafts was overall greater than those of Bill & Jimmy's.
3. The bad drafts were a combination of low picks, Lacewell, inexperienced Jones, poor cap situation, generally speaking.
4. The really good drafts overall had a positive combination of Jimmy and or Bill, relatively higher picks, relatively more picks, a more experienced Jerry and a better cap situation.

Its not all one thing or another. Its not all one person or another. Good or bad. So going forward...

I don't expect Lacewell having an office at VR nor Dave Campo coaching our secondary are going to signal a return to the era between Jimmy & Bill.

I think with a more experienced Jerry Jones as GM (on draft day, FA's, picking HC's, managing the cap, etc) we have a decent shot at remaining a competitive team.

To think otherwise is IMO extremism.

Phenomenal post.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, I still don't get it, and that is not righting the ship, as I explained many times to you, which you conveniently gloss over. His total record here was close to .500, and that is average ball. His best season was his first year, when they didn't even run a 3-4 defense. How is that righting the ship? That speaks of a downward trend, his first 3 years.

His best season was when he didn't even stamp his blueprint on the team. They were running a 4-3 his first year.

He brought in all veterans of the past to contribute to his average record. How is that righting the ship? Your picking up players that are on the verge of retirement to win you a couple of games that are totally irrelevant, because your not even sniffing the play-offs. He wouldn't have sniffed them last year if Romo didn't save his season, or JJ didn't bring in TO.

Please....

Then you have to look at the drafts.

2003 saw him with the organization for a month or two before the draft adn I dont believe he even went to the senior bowl. That was an excellent draft with the exception of the second round pick where Parcells said in a presser he demanded we make. that pick was Al Johsnon. He also wanted Zuriel Smith who you should recall set off a series of bad picks for a punt returner

2004 sucked with trading out of position to take Jackson only to draft Jones who was not very good and then getting Rogers, Peterman Thornton and Ryan who all busted. This draft rivals the Carter/Dixon draft in worst drafts in Cowboys history.

2005 was a strongfollow up. Ware, Canty, Barber, and Ratliff oh my. Three things stick out.

1) Parcells wanted Spears and was overruled --THANK GOD--
2) This was Irelands first year as head of scouting. BTW I think well miss him more than people think
3) Skyler Green

2006 was back to garbage.

Carpenter cant get on the field
Fasano and Hatcher might not have been reaches per se but considering our roster they certainly werent value for us and the 2 TE system never saw significant action anyway. Piss poor.

He was gone for 2007.


The FA he brought in her 'his guys' but for the most part they were JAGs and his drafts werent all that great. Heck our record wasnt all that great either. His best season was with Campos team and Jones draft. Go figure.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

Then you have to look at the drafts.

2003 saw him with the organization for a month or two before the draft adn I dont believe he even went to the senior bowl. That was an excellent draft with the exception of the second round pick where Parcells said in a presser he demanded we make. that pick was Al Johsnon. He also wanted Zuriel Smith who you should recall set off a series of bad picks for a punt returner

2004 sucked with trading out of position to take Jackson only to draft Jones who was not very good and then getting Rogers, Peterman Thornton and Ryan who all busted. This draft rivals the Carter/Dixon draft in worst drafts in Cowboys history.

2005 was a strongfollow up. Ware, Canty, Barber, and Ratliff oh my. Three things stick out.

1) Parcells wanted Spears and was overruled --THANK GOD--
2) This was Irelands first year as head of scouting. BTW I think well miss him more than people think
3) Skyler Green

2006 was back to garbage.

Carpenter cant get on the field
Fasano and Hatcher might not have been reaches per se but considering our roster they certainly werent value for us and the 2 TE system never saw significant action anyway. Piss poor.

He was gone for 2007.


The FA he brought in her 'his guys' but for the most part they were JAGs and his drafts werent all that great. Heck our record wasnt all that great either. His best season was with Campos team and Jones draft. Go figure.

So Phillips year was with Parcells team and Irelands draft.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

[/B]

So Phillips year was with Parcells team and Irelands draft.

Jones is the GM and Phillips is never going to get credit for personell moves but as for the players yes this was the team that parcells made. i agree with that. too bad parcells could never do this witht his group.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

Jones is the GM and Phillips is never going to get credit for personell moves but as for the players yes this was the team that parcells made. i agree with that. too bad parcells could never do this witht his group.

So Says your crystal ball? Some players were healthier, some older and wiser and our QB had his first full year as a starter. So we don't know if it would have been any different. I wonder how Parcells would have handled the bye differently than Phillips though.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So Says your crystal ball? Some players were healthier, some older and wiser and our QB had his first full year as a starter. So we don't know if it would have been any different. I wonder how Parcells would have handled the bye differently than Phillips though.

excuses are like....

 

[Dave_in-NC]

excuses are like....

Those aren't facts? OKay.

 

[tunahelper]

Jerry has issues, but unlike most owners his mistakes occur while being aggressive trying to win.

He has taken a moderate approach to his risk taking ways while still pushing for the betterment of the team.

As a whole he is the type of owner I would perfer to own the Boy's.

 

[sonnyboy]

Read the whole thread. Wasnt easy.

I'm a Jones fan because I'm a Cowboy fan.
I'd like to offer one observation I dont believe was made in this thread.........

Jerry Jones is on a serious roll.
I cant think of anything he's done wrong the last two years.

1) HE signs T.O. I think it's safe to say that was all Jerry. Parcells did all he could to position himself in the "wasnt my idea camp".
On a my scale of ranking GM decisions this has to get the highest possible rating. On my scale you dont get a lot of brownie points for chosing Troy Aikman #1 in the draft.
I give points for thinking outside the box and making tough controversal decisions that work!
T.O. qualifies. Jones ALSO was smart enough to know it made no sense to get T.O. at a bargin price as he could have. He knew that if he paid a true market rate when no one else would, he'd have a forever loyal Owens.
Anyone see that Dion interview before the giants game. "Jerry brought me in to try and win a SB and took some risk doing it, I cant let him down."
I predicted this would work for just this reason.
And no other OWNER/GM in football could have pulled it off like Jones did.

2) Hires Garrett as OC before he hires his HC.
He knew he'd catch hell for this by all the naysayers, negative anti-Cowboy press and especially the anti-Jones A-Holes in this forum.
What's Jones say? Scew it! I know this kid will be great an he may very well be our future. I can't risk not getting him just to play by the numbers.
Also keep in mind this was Garrett's first OC opportunity. No guarantee he'd be as successful as he was. And I think two HC offers after just one season as OC, are prof enough of his excellence and how BRILLANT the decision to hire him was.
And one more thing - How many GM/Owners could have kept a guy like Garrett from jumping on not one but TWO HC OFFERS!

3) Hiring Wade as HC. Perfect Parcells Follow up guy.
Defensive mind to fix our problem area. (great D personel, bad coaching)
Also a reasonable ego to deal with the fact/presence of Garrett.
Most importantly a friendly, honest guy, who could easily endear himself to and build loyalty amongst the players who just got beat up by Parcells for 4 years.
Again this obvious successful hire in hindsight, was no easy no brainer and certainly not popular decision.

4) HAMLIN

5) DAVIS

6) 13-3, BEST TEAM IN THE NFC HANDS DOWN!

and on and on and on I could go.

Bottom line is if you look to the present and future of the Dallas Cowboys with a certain feeling of dread or doom because Jerry Jones is in charge.
You need glasses!

 

[CF74]

Read the whole thread. Wasnt easy.

I'm a Jones fan because I'm a Cowboy fan.
I'd like to offer one observation I dont believe was made in this thread.........

Jerry Jones is on a serious roll.
I cant think of anything he's done wrong the last two years.

1) HE signs T.O. I think it's safe to say that was all Jerry. Parcells did all he could to position himself in the "wasnt my idea camp".
On a my scale of ranking GM decisions this has to get the highest possible rating. On my scale you dont get a lot of brownie points for chosing Troy Aikman #1 in the draft.
I give points for thinking outside the box and making tough controversal decisions that work!
T.O. qualifies. Jones ALSO was smart enough to know it made no sense to get T.O. at a bargin price as he could have. He knew that if he paid a true market rate when no one else would, he'd have a forever loyal Owens.
Anyone see that Dion interview before the giants game. "Jerry brought me in to try and win a SB and took some risk doing it, I cant let him down."
I predicted this would work for just this reason.
And no other OWNER/GM in football could have pulled it off like Jones did.

2) Hires Garrett as OC before he hires his HC.
He knew he'd catch hell for this by all the naysayers, negative anti-Cowboy press and especially the anti-Jones A-Holes in this forum.
What's Jones say? Scew it! I know this kid will be great an he may very well be our future. I can't risk not getting him just to play by the numbers.
Also keep in mind this was Garrett's first OC opportunity. No guarantee he'd be as successful as he was. And I think two HC offers after just one season as OC, are prof enough of his excellence and how BRILLANT the decision to hire him was.
And one more thing - How many GM/Owners could have kept a guy like Garrett from jumping on not one but TWO HC OFFERS!

3) Hiring Wade as HC. Perfect Parcells Follow up guy.
Defensive mind to fix our problem area. (great D personel, bad coaching)
Also a reasonable ego to deal with the fact/presence of Garrett.
Most importantly a friendly, honest guy, who could easily endear himself to and build loyalty amongst the players who just got beat up by Parcells for 4 years.
Again this obvious successful hire in hindsight, was no easy no brainer and certainly not popular decision.

4) HAMLIN

5) DAVIS

6) 13-3, BEST TEAM IN THE NFC HANDS DOWN!

and on and on and on I could go.

Bottom line is if you look to the present and future of the Dallas Cowboys with a certain feeling of dread or doom because Jerry Jones is in charge.
You need glasses!

Not very many have the pair to think and act outside the box. There will always be naysayers and followers, they're called sheep. I tend to think the opposite of the majority for this reason, 9 times out of 10 the majority is wrong. Yeah Jerry made some mistakes in the past but he's got 3 rings and a Billion plus dollar stadium in the works to..