West Coast QB

ABQCOWBOY

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Vince Lombardi had something he called area blocking that "could" be considered the original.

Lombardi actually learned that from, I want to say Allie Sherman. Both Lombardi and Bud Grant learned it and each took it on, Lombardi to Green Bay and Grant to Minnesota so the origins of that scheme go way back. Again, it's like "WC Offense" right? There is a long history behind it and truth be told, it didn't start in San Francisco. In fact, most modern passing game schemes can be traced back to Sid Gillman in one way or another. I mean, it is what it is right? Nothing is really new in the game of Football. It's all been done before, at one time or another. Sometimes something is rediscovered or rebranded but it's not new.

I know you know all this X.
 

garyo1954

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Lombardi actually learned that from, I want to say Allie Sherman. Both Lombardi and Bud Grant learned it and each took it on, Lombardi to Green Bay and Grant to Minnesota so the origins of that scheme go way back. Again, it's like "WC Offense" right? There is a long history behind it and truth be told, it didn't start in San Francisco. In fact, most modern passing game schemes can be traced back to Sid Gillman in one way or another. I mean, it is what it is right? Nothing is really new in the game of Football. It's all been done before, at one time or another. Sometimes something is rediscovered or rebranded but it's not new.

I know you know all this X.


I agree. Most everything is a wash, rinse, repeat with a few things added, modded, or changed.

Last person to do the wash gets to name it whatever he wants.

So it seems.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I agree. Most everything is a wash, rinse, repeat with a few things added, modded, or changed.

Last person to do the wash gets to name it whatever he wants.

So it seems.

Pretty much. I mean, I don't kid myself about how great I am because I understand something that somebody else figured out long before I was even born. On the contrary, LOL....... I might pour myself a couple fingers of whisky and drink to that person but I get it. I'm learning off what somebody else figured out and I'm cool with it.
 

garyo1954

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Pretty much. I mean, I don't kid myself about how great I am because I understand something that somebody else figured out long before I was even born. On the contrary, LOL....... I might pour myself a couple fingers of whisky and drink to that person but I get it. I'm learning off what somebody else figured out and I'm cool with it.

I'll drink to that! Many of these older coaches didn't have the internet to teach them. They had to figure it out themselves and then it was passed along by word of mouth
 

CowboysLegends2

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Although I don't disagree with anything there, where the designation of the system comes from basically is determined by the coach; where he learned it; the concepts involved; etc.

Its not a matter of the media or the fans giving it a name. The fans, for the most part wouldn't know a wishbone from a veer. Coaches learn concepts and offenses and add their own wrinkles. That becomes their base offense.

Certainly they borrow from other schemes, takes others plays, formations, and incorporate those into their own system.

Here's a site that explains the 5 main NFL offensive systems and which teams are running them. You'll notice in their explanation they include: "Some offenses utilize a mix of each strategy, with an implementation of their own unique styles. Others stick pretty close to the script and play a more disciplined game."

https://hydeandzeke.com/every-nfl-team-offensive-tendencies/
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing the link.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I'll drink to that! Many of these older coaches didn't have the internet to teach them. They had to figure it out themselves and then it was passed along by word of mouth

Exactly right. You actually learned it by working under a great Coach and teaching it to the players as an assistant or what have you. In those days, a couch might spend years learning from a Great Coach and then moving on and taking that knowledge with them. Passing it on to the next guy. To me, it was a better way of doing it, if slower, because you not only learned the info but you learned why it worked, you learned why you didn't do certain things in certain ways and you learned why you did do certain things in a prescribed manor. You don't get that anymore. Now, you watch a youtube clip or whatever and you believe you know it but the problem is, you don't know what you don't know. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's much better then having no access to the info and it allows for many, many more to gain knowledge but you don't necessarily learn the message correctly. Not like you used to. Same issues surround things like manual skills. People no longer know who to be real master machinists, they no longer know how to actually carve furniture from wood, they no longer know how to fix a car. It is what it is but that's just my opinion on it.
 

CowboysLegends2

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I actually think this is a terrible fit for Prescott as footwork, reading the field and ball placement are so critical in a West Coast offense. I'm counting on McCarthy to adjust once he sees this QB in action.
I see your point but I thought it might actually help Dak since he won’t have to hold onto the ball for so long waiting for the play to develop. It shouldn’t take long to find out if I’m wrong since the int’s should come early and often if he can’t adjust.

Either way, one positive is with the offense using more screen passes maybe the defense will learn how to defend it.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I see your point but I thought it might actually help Dak since he won’t have to hold onto the ball for so long waiting for the play to develop. It shouldn’t take long to find out if I’m wrong since the int’s should come early and often if he can’t adjust.

Either way, one positive is with the offense using more screen passes maybe the defense will learn how to defend it.

To me, the problem with defending is that you really can't hit anymore. It's one thing to see it on Video but it's another then to actually go out there and practice execution of it. Execute the block or execute the stack and the shed, execute the tackle and learn and practice doing it right. Players don't that anymore because you really only have one day of live hitting in a week. There is no time to practice any of that stuff anymore, which is why you see crappy defense being played. It's why I've said for a very long time, and I know a lot of younger fans don't agree, that players and teams are not as good as they used to be in the NFL.

I hate it but that's how it is now.
 

CowboysLegends2

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To me, the problem with defending is that you really can't hit anymore. It's one thing to see it on Video but it's another then to actually go out there and practice execution of it. Execute the block or execute the stack and the shed, execute the tackle and learn and practice doing it right. Players don't that anymore because you really only have one day of live hitting in a week. There is no time to practice any of that stuff anymore, which is why you see crappy defense being played. It's why I've said for a very long time, and I know a lot of younger fans don't agree, that players and teams are not as good as they used to be in the NFL.

I hate it but that's how it is now.
You are right for sure. NFL in general has gotten worse. From dropped passes to open field tackling. Looks much sloppier than it did before they stopped practicing.

What drove me crazy was the mental part of it. Screens are difficult but common. Green Bay was the first game I remember getting roasted by them but after that there was no excuse. When a LB sees penetration and guards and center start moving out there should be a recognition that they are setting up for a block and start slicing through them to get to the ball. That part is mental but every game we saw screen plays rolling this defense for 20+ yards multiple times a game. It was maddening to see nobody learn from it even going into the last game of the year.
 

kskboys

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I see your point but I thought it might actually help Dak since he won’t have to hold onto the ball for so long waiting for the play to develop. It shouldn’t take long to find out if I’m wrong since the int’s should come early and often if he can’t adjust.

Either way, one positive is with the offense using more screen passes maybe the defense will learn how to defend it.
Prescott is supposedly good at reading the field. We'll find out soon.
 

Flamma

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Some time back I saw a U-Tube video on the West Coast offense showing Bill Wash talking and Joe Montana doing the step though. The video had Joe doing 3 step, 5 step, and 7 step drop plays. Bill indicated that at the end of each of the 3, 5, and 7 drops the ball is thrown. each of those drop plays has a predetermine step distance, speed, and stance.

My point is who every they bring in should be aware of these or has the West Coast Offense changed?

Interesting that you brought that up. Whenever I go back and watch games from the late 70s through the 80s I notice that a lot. That ball is out at the end of their drops or shortly after. Not a lot of dancing around and holding on to the ball in the pocket.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Underrated post.

West Coast offenses require a QB that has silky smooth feet (watch Garroppolo drop back) and pinpoint accuracy.

Dak can't have those "the receiver had a chance to catch it" throws because most routes in the west coast offense are horizontal and a bad throw can easily become a tip ball by the receiver and INT.

We will see..

Fans seem to underrate Daks ball placement. Dak's completion percentage in tight windows is top 10 for example.

The Cowboys were already running tons of digs and drags ie horizontal routes you are worried about

Dak's feet improved dramatically this past season particularly from a consistency standpoint.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Prescott is supposedly good at reading the field. We'll find out soon.

He is both aggressive in average depth of throws and has a low interception percentage. You don't get that way if you cannot read defenses.
 

starcity214

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Fans seem to underrate Daks ball placement. Dak's completion percentage in tight windows is top 10 for example.

The Cowboys were already running tons of digs and drags ie horizontal routes you are worried about

Dak's feet improved dramatically this past season particularly from a consistency standpoint.


Are you serious?

That "tight window" stat is stupid and let me explain why..

Dak sees a WR running a 10 yard comeback route..

Usually, QBs throw the ball before the WR comes back and the ball hits the WR just as he is coming back towards the QB and the WR, by default, will have some separation on this route if a QB throws the ball with anticipation.

Dak? He usually only throws the ball after the WR has come back allowing the CB to close the gap and make the throw a contested catch.

Although the Throw was technically a "tight window" throw it really should have been an easy 10 yard throw if Dak had any spatial awareness or anticipation.

Don't trust in odd stats, you can nake them say anything.

And buddy, I'm not the only one doubting Dak's accuracy.

Jerry himself has been quoted as saying "Dak can get the ball close enough to where a WR has a chance"

Also

"Dak is missing by yards in training camp, not feet like he used to"

And how can we forget the fact that both Carr and Garrett beat Dak in simple throwing contests where there were no schemes, no WRs, and no defensive linemen to worry about..


But hey, you believe what you want.
 

morat1959

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Are you serious?

That "tight window" stat is stupid and let me explain why..

Dak sees a WR running a 10 yard comeback route..

Usually, QBs throw the ball before the WR comes back and the ball hits the WR just as he is coming back towards the QB and the WR, by default, will have some separation on this route if a QB throws the ball with anticipation.

Dak? He usually only throws the ball after the WR has come back allowing the CB to close the gap and make the throw a contested catch.

Although the Throw was technically a "tight window" throw it really should have been an easy 10 yard throw if Dak had any spatial awareness or anticipation.

Don't trust in odd stats, you can nake them say anything.

And buddy, I'm not the only one doubting Dak's accuracy.

Jerry himself has been quoted as saying "Dak can get the ball close enough to where a WR has a chance"

Also

"Dak is missing by yards in training camp, not feet like he used to"

And how can we forget the fact that both Carr and Garrett beat Dak in simple throwing contests where there were no schemes, no WRs, and no defensive linemen to worry about..


But hey, you believe what you want.
How some can’t see and acknowledge the obvious is beyond me.
 

Number1

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I think Dak and Co., are gonna do great in McCarthy's offense.

frankly Dak and Zeke will do well in any system - it's called raw talent

the statements listed in this forum covering what is orisn't a WCO are rather inaccurate

so for the record -
the so called WCO is what evolved from the mind of Paul Brown's trap and shoot
TSO. "timing system" O's evolved from the mid of Sid Gilman

both are works of absolute geniuses and are the 2 core systems run in the NFL

WCOs focus on beating in the flats, it force the D to focus between defending the flats from either run/pass
it makes your LBs make ugly choices ... particularly either play the run or the pass

TSOs. are about forcing the D to focus on either the run / deep pass
either your Ss stack the box or allow 1 on 1 deep

there are 32 different hybrid versions using each in the modern NFL
but the terminology needs to use one or the other
note, the Boys, NO, and SEA are the purest versions of theTSO, with KC, PHL, and LAR doing WCOs

MM with Rodgers made a WCO w/ deep passing work with deep passing, that's rare

The WCO requires lightning quick QB reads. the TSO serious brians ... WHY?

In the WCO the QB has a set progression and doesn't need to think much, just throw to the 1st open read

In the TSO the read progression is set at the LOS, you general position your X for 1 on 1, and is 1st target

in both systems you need a serious TE to move the chains consistently

either can use the run to set up the pass or vise versa depending on personnel and match up

both systems offer incredible versatility in play calling, both are works of genius
you could literally call thousands on different plays in the huddle
and audible to thousands of different plays at the LOS

the changle to MM will be switching terminology and getting both on the same page
much like Rodgers, Dak's strong suites are disciplined progressions and buying time to go down field

BTW, the numbers Dak put up in the last season and a half with new faces and no true X are stunning

also of note, in 2019 Kellen and Garret, tried something I've never seen before ...
a TSO with 3 or 4 different WRs playing X every game - that took guts, and put up near 5,000y passing
that is an amazing mental achievement - never likely to be duplicated
the last point demonstrates the type of brains, focus, and comm Dak brings to the game

the changle to MM will be switching terminology and getting everyone on the same page

of the players currently on the roster - Jarwin has the toughest transition

with Zeke and Dak on the field expect a heavy dose of play action deep - he has to get it - he's the glue

the playbook has to get to everyone ASAP with few changes during the off season to be contenders
 

Redball Express

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Dak can play well in any system, I think the team needs to be balanced and attack other teams weakness. If passing is weakness then pass heavy, if run is the weakness than run heavy.
So many times I have been completely befuddled with our coaches and playcalls.

Leading up to games..the media would underline injury reports about DBs being limited and should be attacked.

Instead, we would not do anything like that or do t a couple of times then go back to running Zeke or throw short to Witten and go to the sideline.

Why?

Will this coaching staff do this or do why play aggressive as logic would suggest and try to win games?
 
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