Twitter: What Zeke feels about Moore as OC

Verdict

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Which is like saying, since there is an example of an NFL team having acquired its franchise QB in the 4th round of a draft, every other 4th round QB pick should automatically enjoy the same credibility. Yes?

Won't matter. The more legitimate comparison is how much control the Rams' HC and the Cowboys' HC... similar to the Saints' HC, btw... will exercise over their offenses in 2019, as opposed to each of their coordinators. Linehan is gone, but not only that, he took the more typical and traditional OC role with him.

What I am saying is let’s wait and see what happens. The organization has been making better and better decisions lately. Filling Alexander mid season and promoting Colombo was one of those. It probably saved the season last year. Columbo didn’t have a great deal of experience either.

Or would you rather just go around jumping to conclusions? Moore may fail, but what happens if he turns out to be the next big thing? Zeke seems to be all for Moore taking over.
 

_sturt_

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Moore may fail

Moore won't fail. He will only participate in helping Garrett will fail.

Moore won't succeed. He will only participate in helping Garrett succeed.

Or would you rather just go around jumping to conclusions?

It is far more confounding why anyone would jump to the conclusion that a 53 year-old coach on the hot seat with an OC background is going to hand over his offense to a 29 year-old with zero track record whatsoever than it is to "jump" to the opposite conclusion.

And given all that Jerry and Stephen and Jason said in the lead-up and just following KM's hire, indicating that others on staff will have a broader role than their position coach duties... Nussmeier, Kitna and Columbo in particular were cited... one conclusion is so much more clearly supported than the other, it begins to get ridiculous, imo.
 

Verdict

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Moore won't fail. He will only participate in helping Garrett will fail.

Moore won't succeed. He will only participate in helping Garrett succeed.



It is far more confounding why anyone would jump to the conclusion that a 53 year-old coach on the hot seat with an OC background is going to hand over his offense to a 29 year-old with zero track record whatsoever than it is to "jump" to the opposite conclusion.

And given all that Jerry and Stephen and Jason said in the lead-up and just following KM's hire, indicating that others on staff will have a broader role than their position coach duties... Nussmeier, Kitna and Columbo in particular were cited... one conclusion is so much more clearly supported than the other, it begins to get ridiculous, imo.

If you guys believe Garrett is on the hot seat, you may, possibly, be naive.
 

morat1959

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Moore is the biggest question mark for the 2019 Dallas Cowboys. There is just simply no way anyone outside the organization can have a good read on whether putting him in charge of the offense will make the front office look like geniuses or bums.
View past history.
 

morat1959

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Maybe, if this were going to be a traditional OC role.

This is not going to be a traditional OC role

Go back and re-read the quotes leading up to and just after KM was named OC.

He's getting a title, and surely he'll have some very specific leadership responsibilities within that... but the wildcatting term seems more appropriately applied to how they're intending to incorporate Moore with Nussemeier, Columbo, and Kitna in some kind of unspecified team approach to creating and implementing the offense... and evidently with Garrett's approval because he was in that room when they made the decisions they did.

This is Garrett's offense. This is Garrett's career at-stake, so of course it is. Moore will do some things... designing some plays, calling some plays... but everything he does will be under the scrutiny and tutelage of his boss, like you'd expect any 29 year-old (he's still not 30 yet) to be given in any other job under a 53 year-old supervisor.

It the end, Garrett either will own the success or will own the failure. It's his ship. All of which is as it should be.
And has been for the last 9 years. Where has that gotten us?
 

OmerV

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It is far more confounding why anyone would jump to the conclusion that a 53 year-old coach on the hot seat with an OC background is going to hand over his offense to a 29 year-old with zero track record whatsoever than it is to "jump" to the opposite conclusion.

Why jump to either conclusion?
 

_sturt_

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Why jump to either conclusion?


Notice I didn't say jump... I said "jump"... quote/unquote... right?... that's because it isn't a jump at all when the rationale is this strong.

So why so difficult for people to accept? Working theory... and it is a working theory, because there very well could be some other options that I'm missing... is that Garrett haters are concerned this could really work, and they need an out.... so, if it works, they need to be able to credit someone other than Garrett.
 

_sturt_

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And has been for the last 9 years. Where has that gotten us?

That's gotten us results that are mostly the equivalent of what mathematical probability says it should have gotten us.... with the exception of post-season success in the form of a conference championship game appearance.

We should make the playoffs about once every 3 years... check.... win our division on-average once every 4 years... check.... appear in a championship game about once every eight years... *buzzzzz*.

But/and regardless of what it's gotten us, it just is. The success or failure of the 2019 team is on Jason Garrett. Stating the obvious, or what should be. He will either deserve to leave or deserve to stay, based on whether this team makes the conference championship (... and that appears to not only be my take, but I've seen polling that supports that it's the majority take).
 

OmerV

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Notice I didn't say jump... I said "jump"... quote/unquote... right?... that's because it isn't a jump at all when the rationale is this strong.

So why so difficult for people to accept? Working theory... and it is a working theory, because there very well could be some other options that I'm missing... is that Garrett haters are concerned this could really work, and they need an out.... so, if it works, they need to be able to credit someone other than Garrett.

Whether you put quotation marks around the word “jump” or not doesn’t change the fact it is a conclusion made without the benefit of evidence. I obviously get that Moore’s lack of experience is a point of concern, but the reality is until we see him in action over time we don’t have any direct evidence that he will either succeed or fail. So, my question still stands - why the need to reach a conclusion now?
 

_sturt_

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Whether you put quotation marks around the word “jump” or not doesn’t change the fact it is a conclusion made without the benefit of evidence.

As the message sender, I know exactly what I meant to convey when I put quotation marks around the word jump... ie, that it's not really one, though some, for their own reasons, appear to be determined to characterize it as one.

So, you really want to go down this road? I think it's needless, really, because... not trying to flatter you, but... you impress me as an intelligent person who knows this... but oh well, let's do it then...

There are two ways of supporting the degree to which a conclusion is a rational conclusion... empirical observation, and if-a-and-if-b-then-c logic.

Both are forms of "evidence."

In this case, we have direct information from the superiors/principals indicating that they have re-envisioned how the offensive coaching staff ought to work together... that's empirical observation... and we have the logic that says if a person's job is on the line, and if a big-rock responsibility in that person's job is X, then that person is going to be very hands-on with X, even if he had a seasoned assistant to delegate X to....

And forpetesake... let alone, if he had a rookie assistant involved in the equation.



the reality is until we see him in action over time we don’t have any direct evidence that he will either succeed or fail. So, my question still stands - why the need to reach a conclusion now?

I've apparently been misunderstood. Though I'm really not sure how, because I really thought anyway I've been pretty specific and cogent in the conclusions I've reached....

It's indeed an open question whether the Garrett 2019 offense will succeed or fail. I've reached no conclusion on that. I'm as optimistic as the next guy, I really am.

But again... it is Garrett's offense.

Moore will help. But he will help in the same way that you'd expect a rookie OC to help. This is not his offense, though he is an influencer, and he will be given some leash to, within boundaries that Garrett sets, do some things that otherwise might not have been done. But Kitna is also an influencer. Columbo is also an influencer. Nussmeier, too. Moore will coordinate. Garrett will supervise.... supervise, that is, in the way a person whose job is on the line would be expected to supervise.

That's the conclusion to be taken from the words of the principals and from the self-evident logic in front of our eyes.

And this really shouldn't be any surprise. Based on the Joneses' having publicly said that a rationale for lettting Linehan go is the point that top 5 offenses of-late have been the ones getting to championship games, obviously they're paying attention to what the Rams and Saints do... former OCs who are HCs who have a heavy hand in their offenses, and delegate to their OCs limited responsibilities.
 

Dak_Attack_09

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......until Garrett reminds him whose offense he is running and who the HC is.

We all know Jerry empowered Dak & Moore to take on more responsibilities on offense so Garret can focus on the overall team.

Everyone must do their part.
 

OmerV

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As the message sender, I know exactly what I meant to convey when I put quotation marks around the word jump... ie, that it's not really one, though some, for their own reasons, appear to be determined to characterize it as one.

So, you really want to go down this road? I think it's needless, really, because... not trying to flatter you, but... you impress me as an intelligent person who knows this... but oh well, let's do it then...

There are two ways of supporting the degree to which a conclusion is a rational conclusion... empirical observation, and if-a-and-if-b-then-c logic.

Both are forms of "evidence."

In this case, we have direct information from the superiors/principals indicating that they have re-envisioned how the offensive coaching staff ought to work together... that's empirical observation... and we have the logic that says if a person's job is on the line, and if a big-rock responsibility in that person's job is X, then that person is going to be very hands-on with X, even if he had a seasoned assistant to delegate X to....

And forpetesake... let alone, if he had a rookie assistant involved in the equation.





I've apparently been misunderstood. Though I'm really not sure how, because I really thought anyway I've been pretty specific and cogent in the conclusions I've reached....

It's indeed an open question whether the Garrett 2019 offense will succeed or fail. I've reached no conclusion on that. I'm as optimistic as the next guy, I really am.

But again... it is Garrett's offense.

Moore will help. But he will help in the same way that you'd expect a rookie OC to help. This is not his offense, though he is an influencer, and he will be given some leash to, within boundaries that Garrett sets, do some things that otherwise might not have been done. But Kitna is also an influencer. Columbo is also an influencer. Nussmeier, too. Moore will coordinate. Garrett will supervise.... supervise, that is, in the way a person whose job is on the line would be expected to supervise.

That's the conclusion to be taken from the words of the principals and from the self-evident logic in front of our eyes.

And this really shouldn't be any surprise. Based on the Joneses' having publicly said that a rationale for lettting Linehan go is the point that top 5 offenses of-late have been the ones getting to championship games, obviously they're paying attention to what the Rams and Saints do... former OCs who are HCs who have a heavy hand in their offenses, and delegate to their OCs limited responsibilities.

None of the evidence you are speaking of is evidence of anything Moore can do or add. Moore’s impact remains to be seen, and there is no direct evidence of how that will play out,

This “Garrett’s offense” argument is old and ill founded. First, Garrett hasn’t created some unusual or unique offensive scheme. Most of what is in the playbook is in other teams playbooks as well, but the Cowboys have been less successful than some disguising things with motion and misdirection and have been a bit too predictable with the play calling. Second is that despite how some fans like to portray it, “Garrett’s offense” isn’t some set in stone, unchanging monster that Garrett protects at all costs and lords over with a heavy hand. Since Garrett has been a coach with the Cowboys the offense has changed from a heavy pass emphasis to run heavy. In addition, there have not always been empty backfields and jet sweeps, and RBs splitting out wide, and back shoulder fades and designed QB keepers etc ....
 

_sturt_

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None of the evidence you are speaking of is evidence of anything Moore can do or add. Moore’s impact remains to be seen, and there is no direct evidence of how that will play out,

How many different ways can I say this, and how much italics and bold must I use.... or maybe it needs some color?...

It's indeed an open question whether the Garrett 2019 offense will succeed or fail. I've reached no conclusion on that.

To the rest of your comment... again, we seem to be failing to communicate... I never meant to suggest that Garrett's 2019 offense will look like previous OC Garrett offenses... to the contrary, I've said (based again on what Jerry, Stephen and Jason have divulged) that there are influencers... but Garrett will be the head honcho, he will be the heavy, nothing will be in the playbook, nothing will be called and ran on the field that doesn't have Jason Garrett's fingerprints all over it.

Does that help?
 
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OmerV

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How many different ways can I say this, and how much italics and bold must I use.... or maybe it needs some color?...



To the rest of your comment... again, we seem to be failing to communicate... I never meant to suggest that Garrett's 2019 offense will look like previous OC Garrett offenses... to the contrary, I've said (based again on what Jerry, Stephen and Jason have divulged) that there are influencers... but Garrett will be the head honcho, he will be the heavy, nothing will be in the playbook, nothing will be called and ran on the field that doesn't have Jason Garrett's fingerprints all over it.

Does that help?
It’s the job of every head coach to at the very least have input, and steer in a general direction. That’s not unique to the Cowboys. But that doesn’t mean Moore will be impotent any more than it means offensive coaches on other teams are impotent.

And let’s be clear about something, and that is that it doesn’t take some wild or total departure from everything the offense has done in the past to make a notable difference, Some added motion/shifts and misdirection can yield clear and positive results. A little less predictability in play calling - which will fall on Moore by the way - can yield clear and positive results. A few other added wrinkles can help. With these things the offense can look very different even though the base underlying scheme and playbook aren’t radically different. Moore will have some latitude to do all that. And sure, Garrett will be aware and have input, but that doesn’t mean he will be a roadblock for Moore.
 

_sturt_

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Moore will have some latitude to do all that. And sure, Garrett will be aware and have input, but that doesn’t mean he will be a roadblock for Moore.

We agree Moore will have latitude... whatever latitude his boss grants him... and will be limited to the extent that his boss limits him.

I've said what I've said, and I've cited support for what I said. It stands on its own. Done here. You're welcome to a last word.
 
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