Would Hill have gone 1st round if not for attitude?

jnday

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No, he’s not strong enough against the run.

Based on talent alone he wasn’t a top 50 player for me and a good amount of analysts.
There are many reasons to believe that he would have still been available for the third round pick. Just about every bit of info that I have read stated that teams had a 3rd or 4th round grade on him. He has a ton of physical talent, but it didn’t translate to his on the field play a lot of the time.
 

Hadenough

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I don't much about him but I did watch a YouTube video of his workout and man he has motor with fast feet and is very quick for guy his size. That alone tells me he has some pretty good potential. I did see some of his college tape and he looked disruptive but it's hard to tell how often he was like that.
 

cnuball21

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There are many reasons to believe that he would have still been available for the third round pick. Just about every bit of info that I have read stated that teams had a 3rd or 4th round grade on him. He has a ton of physical talent, but it didn’t translate to his on the field play a lot of the time.

Probably so, and if not move along.

I'd be much happier with Thornhill and Mack than Hill and the S I've never heard of we drafted.
 

beware_d-ware

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Been watching some Cowboys game rewinds.

What strikes me is that the Cowboys run defense is based on gap shooting almost as much as their pass rush is. There was a PFF article written about this years ago, but watching the tape, it is still in effect today. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-just-how-good-was-the-dallas-cowboys-run-defense-in-2016

Basically, the D linemen play both the run and the pass pretty much the same way: they don't stack and shed blocks, they get upfield as fast as possible. Ideally, the D linemen either shoot the gap for a big play, or more often, they create traffic and disrupt the run enough for a LB to come in and finish it off. So DTs really don't need to sit down and anchor unless they get blasted by a double team off the snap (and Woods does a really good job holding up against these FWIW). They do need some strength when things break down into a wrestling match inside, but explosiveness comes first.

I don't know if I like this, because for one, running upfield like a chicken with its head cut off leaves our defense VERY vulnerable to traps and misdirection, and it outsources some of the DT's responsibility for stopping the play to the LBs and puts that extra burden on them. But for Hill, it's going to maximize his explosiveness and minimize his lack of power.

I'm starting to think it might be a little bit like LVE last year, where some people (including me) were concerned about his block shedding, but sort of misunderstood what our scheme was going to ask him to do. He wasn't going to be asked to stack and shed like an old school 3-4 ILB. Vander Esch was free to run in space and pick through traffic at Will, and if he did take on blockers, it was usually an open field one-on-one with some TE / H-back/ WR that he had 20-50 pounds on. In the same vein, Hill may not end up being the run D liability we think.

As a side note, I really recommend that any interested or bored fans take a look at Cowboys condensed games on Youtube. You can start following players instead of the ball when you already know how the game is going to go, and it can really give you some insight into our players past the usual stat sheet and PFF offseason talk.
 
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waldoputty

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Been watching some Cowboys game rewinds.

What strikes me is that the Cowboys run defense is based on gap shooting almost as much as their pass rush is. There was a PFF article written about this years ago, but watching the tape, it is still in effect today. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-just-how-good-was-the-dallas-cowboys-run-defense-in-2016

Basically, the D linemen play both the run and the pass pretty much the same way: they don't stack and shed blocks, they get upfield as fast as possible. Ideally, the D linemen either shoot the gap for a big play, or more often, they create traffic and disrupt the run enough for a LB to come in and finish it off. So DTs really don't need to sit down and anchor unless they get blasted by a double team off the snap (and Woods does a really good job holding up against these FWIW). They do need some strength when things break down into a wrestling match inside, but explosiveness comes first.

I don't know if I like this, because for one, running upfield like a chicken with its head cut off leaves our defense VERY vulnerable to traps and misdirection, and it outsources some of the DT's responsibility for stopping the play to the LBs and puts that extra burden on them. But for Hill, it's going to maximize his explosiveness and minimize his lack of power.

I'm starting to think it might be a little bit like LVE last year, where some people (including me) were concerned about his block shedding, but sort of misunderstood what our scheme was going to ask him to do. He wasn't going to be asked to stack and shed like an old school 3-4 ILB. Vander Esch was free to run in space and pick through traffic at Will, and if he did take on blockers, it was usually an open field one-on-one with some TE / H-back/ WR that he had 20-50 pounds on. In the same vein, Hill may not end up being the run D liability we think.

As a side note, I really recommend that any interested or bored fans take a look at Cowboys condensed games on Youtube. You can start following players instead of the ball when you already know how the game is going to go, and it can really give you some insight into our players past the usual stat sheet and PFF offseason talk.

that is why hill's strengths is a perfect fit for the scheme.
however, did the scheme failure in los angeles last year or was it the injury/failure by the dts?
i have not rewatched the rams game...
 

beware_d-ware

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that is why hill's strengths is a perfect fit for the scheme.
however, did the scheme failure in los angeles last year or was it the injury/failure by the dts?
i have not rewatched the rams game...

Haven't made it that far either. Too painful.
 

cnuball21

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Been watching some Cowboys game rewinds.

What strikes me is that the Cowboys run defense is based on gap shooting almost as much as their pass rush is. There was a PFF article written about this years ago, but watching the tape, it is still in effect today. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-just-how-good-was-the-dallas-cowboys-run-defense-in-2016

Basically, the D linemen play both the run and the pass pretty much the same way: they don't stack and shed blocks, they get upfield as fast as possible. Ideally, the D linemen either shoot the gap for a big play, or more often, they create traffic and disrupt the run enough for a LB to come in and finish it off. So DTs really don't need to sit down and anchor unless they get blasted by a double team off the snap (and Woods does a really good job holding up against these FWIW). They do need some strength when things break down into a wrestling match inside, but explosiveness comes first.

I don't know if I like this, because for one, running upfield like a chicken with its head cut off leaves our defense VERY vulnerable to traps and misdirection, and it outsources some of the DT's responsibility for stopping the play to the LBs and puts that extra burden on them. But for Hill, it's going to maximize his explosiveness and minimize his lack of power.

I'm starting to think it might be a little bit like LVE last year, where some people (including me) were concerned about his block shedding, but sort of misunderstood what our scheme was going to ask him to do. He wasn't going to be asked to stack and shed like an old school 3-4 ILB. Vander Esch was free to run in space and pick through traffic at Will, and if he did take on blockers, it was usually an open field one-on-one with some TE / H-back/ WR that he had 20-50 pounds on. In the same vein, Hill may not end up being the run D liability we think.

As a side note, I really recommend that any interested or bored fans take a look at Cowboys condensed games on Youtube. You can start following players instead of the ball when you already know how the game is going to go, and it can really give you some insight into our players past the usual stat sheet and PFF offseason talk.

Makes sense, and as great as this sounds in theory it’s a recipe for disaster against good OLs IMO.

Against IND and STL, we played great OLs who were able to get bodied in our LBs and kill us.

If your DTs aren’t anchoring and getting off blocks to play the run, you basically have to have elite LB play to be good against the run.

For a lot of the year we got that, but we got exposed against playoff caliber OLs.
 

waldoputty

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hill was not taken in the 1st for 2 good reasons:
1. he is in the sparq chart b-quadrant due to lack of performance stats. while his pressure performance was good, he did not get enough snaps.
2. he was not a starter on a ucf team
he was probably screwed by the head coach for a lot of $
 

Beaker42

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It would have been a pretty awesome feat.

Actually, it is not common that a college staff buries a player and he still goes in the 2nd round.

I can appreciate that Marinelli trusts Frost, but that is a huge deal. That is us basically telling the current staff at UCF that they don't know what they were dealing with.
They probably didn’t.
 

speedkilz88

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10) Trysten Hill, DT, Dallas Cowboys



Drafted 58th overall (Round 2) out of Central Florida. The marriage between Hill and defensive coordinator Rod Marinelli is a match made in heaven, based on the defensive tackle's non-stop motor and relentless approach. The 6-3, 308-pounder plays like his hair is on fire on every play, and he promised the grizzled coach that he would bring that same effort to Dallas when he signed a "work ethic contract" prior to the draft. Considering Marinelli's track record with hard-working defensive linemen and Hill's natural talents, the Cowboys might've added an unheralded difference maker to their frontline.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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thanks fuzzy

As for scheme or not, players have to win battles. Ross and Reed were not getting it done. Better S play might have gotten it done, but I know of no scheme that compensates for DT that are easy combos and getting washed.

What I am concerned about is who is going to play the 1. Most of the press coming out has Hill pegged at the 3. I hope Covington and Woods can get it done. DT still feels thin to me.
 

JoeKing

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As for scheme or not, players have to win battles. Ross and Reed were not getting it done. Better S play might have gotten it done, but I know of no scheme that compensates for DT that are easy combos and getting washed.

What I am concerned about is who is going to play the 1. Most of the press coming out has Hill pegged at the 3. I hope Covington and Woods can get it done. DT still feels thin to me.
I agree but we have to let them compete for those interior jobs and see if anyone shines. I try to keep my emotions out of it at this early stage and just study who they have competing for those jobs. I suspect we have already found a great combination of players at the 1 and 3. We just have to let them compete and see who rises to the top.
 

JBell

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Been watching some Cowboys game rewinds.

What strikes me is that the Cowboys run defense is based on gap shooting almost as much as their pass rush is. There was a PFF article written about this years ago, but watching the tape, it is still in effect today. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-just-how-good-was-the-dallas-cowboys-run-defense-in-2016

Basically, the D linemen play both the run and the pass pretty much the same way: they don't stack and shed blocks, they get upfield as fast as possible. Ideally, the D linemen either shoot the gap for a big play, or more often, they create traffic and disrupt the run enough for a LB to come in and finish it off. So DTs really don't need to sit down and anchor unless they get blasted by a double team off the snap (and Woods does a really good job holding up against these FWIW). They do need some strength when things break down into a wrestling match inside, but explosiveness comes first.

I don't know if I like this, because for one, running upfield like a chicken with its head cut off leaves our defense VERY vulnerable to traps and misdirection, and it outsources some of the DT's responsibility for stopping the play to the LBs and puts that extra burden on them. But for Hill, it's going to maximize his explosiveness and minimize his lack of power.

I'm starting to think it might be a little bit like LVE last year, where some people (including me) were concerned about his block shedding, but sort of misunderstood what our scheme was going to ask him to do. He wasn't going to be asked to stack and shed like an old school 3-4 ILB. Vander Esch was free to run in space and pick through traffic at Will, and if he did take on blockers, it was usually an open field one-on-one with some TE / H-back/ WR that he had 20-50 pounds on. In the same vein, Hill may not end up being the run D liability we think.

As a side note, I really recommend that any interested or bored fans take a look at Cowboys condensed games on Youtube. You can start following players instead of the ball when you already know how the game is going to go, and it can really give you some insight into our players past the usual stat sheet and PFF offseason talk.
that is why hill's strengths is a perfect fit for the scheme.
however, did the scheme failure in los angeles last year or was it the injury/failure by the dts?
i have not rewatched the rams game...
actually i was chatting with @FuzzyLumpkins about this.
i think he reviewed the tape, and believed it was the injuries that killed us.
i presume that means it was not a scheme failure... lets hope that is the case
Ot was close as long as Woods was healthy.. After that they killed us up the middle.
It was a scheme failure plain and simple. Rams Guard Austin Blythe flat out said they knew which way the Cowboys defensive line was stunting "90% of the time" and it showed up on tape.

"Rams right guard Austin Blythe told The Ringer that it worked “plus-90 percent” of the time, crediting the inside information with helping Los Angeles run for 273 yards on 48 carries.

If Maliek Collins shaded closer to the tackle, the Rams expected a stunt. If Collins lined up wider, the Rams looked to see which hand a certain Cowboys lineman had on the ground. The Rams said it gave them a good idea what was coming.

“We had a pretty good tell when they were going to do that,” Blythe told The Ringer."





Rams O-lineman were easily washing D-lineman out of plays, using their aggressiveness against them while easily getting to the second level against the linebackers.

Even before Woods got injured we were getting gashed on the ground. Antwaun Woods tore his labrum on the first play of the Rams third drive. (11:20 mark in the 2nd quarter).

The Rams already had gotten 127 yards on the first two drives with a healthy Woods. 85 of those yards came on the ground on 15 carries in a little over one quarter.
 

ghst187

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I’m curious if anyone sees Hill as any better than Collins? (Aside from Collins being injured often)
 

TheSkaven

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The Cowboys’ defense played very well through to almost the end of the regular season last year, then allowed four 100 yard rushers in their final five games, capped off by that horrible performance against the Rams.

It’s clear to everyone that our defensive line was gassed and I think the Cowboys went into this draft to make DLine, and DT specifically, a priority. Safety didn’t get us bounced from the playoffs last year, defensive line did.

The team had 33 sacks through the first 12 regular season games then had only 6 in the last four games.

This tells you everything that you need to know. And here’s the best part: I believe that they fixed it. With the guys they added in the draft, this is a better defense. Period.
 
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