You Think Dak Stinks Question

[kskboys]

It’s a all or nothing year for Dak. He obviously thinks he is a top rated quarterback. I think with the Garrett shackles of conservative off, Dak will be able to show off. MM offense approach will be different from Garrett. We should be in for a treat. He better be more consistent or he will not get the contract he wants.

Yup.

I believe that's the reason they couldn't come to an agreement. Cowboys really need to see what he can do under competent coaching.

 

[JJHLH1]

Yes, and what is your point?

Someone else claimed Dak was offered more than Wilson. Unless I misunderstood him.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

Well here's your list of every QB ever drafted. Let's take the last 15 years where 47 QBs were drafted in the 1st round. I got 18 clear busts, 7 mediocre guys that can start, 10 hits, and 12 players that we just don't know enough about yet. However, even if half of those 12 pan out which is above historical success you're still looking at 1/3 shot of finding a good alternative round 1.

For the record the mediocre guys I have in there include guys like Mariotta and Bridgewater which may be generous to this point.

The unsure list includes everyone from the last 3 draft classes and Mitch. Pretty sure Mitch is a bust, but guess we'll know for sure after this year.

The hits? Rodgers, Ryan, Stafford, Newton, Luck, Mahomes, Watson, along with Jackson, Goff, and even Wentz. Some of those may be debatable, but at the end of the day all are guys that have had career success and could potentially be 10 year productive starters.



https://www.pro-football-reference....s[]=QB&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all

Fifteen years is going back way too far. I’m thinking more like five, when you could see the proliferation of the college spread offense really make its way to the pro level, and the result was more successes than ever from first year starters (along with more willingness from teams to let them play right away).
You clearly have a different view of what a bust is. A bust is a guy who is unplayable even after given multiple chances to develop. Trubisky is not a bust, not even close after the way he played in 2018. He’s a disappointment, especially considering who he was drafted before, but not a bust. I would rather draft the next Trubisky and pay him 30 million over his entire rookie contract and hope he can give me a couple of 2018s out of the 4 then pay Dak 35 million for just one season of 8-8.
My original point is that in the year 2020 I think the odds of drafting a complete bust who sets your franchise back is negligible and a lot less of a concern than it would have been even 10 years ago.

 

[kskboys]

Someone else claimed Dak was offered more than Wilson. Unless I misunderstood him.

Oh. Not sure of the relevance, but OK.

 

[Flamma]

Fifteen years is going back way too far. I’m thinking more like five, when you could see the proliferation of the college spread offense really make its way to the pro level, and the result was more successes than ever from first year starters (along with more willingness from teams to let them play right away).
You clearly have a different view of what a bust is. A bust is a guy who is unplayable even after given multiple chances to develop. Trubisky is not a bust, not even close after the way he played in 2018. He’s a disappointment, especially considering who he was drafted before, but not a bust. I would rather draft the next Trubisky and pay him 30 million over his entire rookie contract and hope he can give me a couple of 2018s out of the 4 then pay Dak 35 million for just one season of 8-8.
My original point is that in the year 2020 I think the odds of drafting a complete bust who sets your franchise back is negligible and a lot less of a concern than it would have been even 10 years ago.

People have different opinions on what a bust is. Some think it's simply not living up to expectations. But to me a bust is Ryan Leaf, JaMarcus Russel, or Johnny Manzeil. But I can see the other side of the coin too. Ask Bears fans what they think of Trubiski. Didn't they trade up and pick him 2nd overall? They're not even picking up his 5th year option. I can see if he was picked in the 3rd round, but 2nd overall? If he's not a bust in their eyes he's a huge disappointment at best. That's splitting hairs.

 

[Kingofholland]

Fifteen years is going back way too far. I’m thinking more like five, when you could see the proliferation of the college spread offense really make its way to the pro level, and the result was more successes than ever from first year starters (along with more willingness from teams to let them play right away).
You clearly have a different view of what a bust is. A bust is a guy who is unplayable even after given multiple chances to develop. Trubisky is not a bust, not even close after the way he played in 2018. He’s a disappointment, especially considering who he was drafted before, but not a bust. I would rather draft the next Trubisky and pay him 30 million over his entire rookie contract and hope he can give me a couple of 2018s out of the 4 then pay Dak 35 million for just one season of 8-8.
My original point is that in the year 2020 I think the odds of drafting a complete bust who sets your franchise back is negligible and a lot less of a concern than it would have been even 10 years ago.

I would argue that's way too short of a time period to make that judgement, but guess in a couple years you'll have the data to possibly prove me wrong, but at the moment decades of data says otherwise. ; )... And as I said, this year will tell us what category Mitch fits in. However, if he was Cowboys pick nearly the entire fan base would be just about done with him, just like most Bears fans. A lot of young QBs show promise at one point, but don't further progress or regress. It would still represent a wasted pick even if you get one promising season out of the player.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I appreciate the responses. However, I have read every one and notice some of the people who continually rag on Dak have no answer on how to replace him.

You see this is not a simple task pinpointing how to remove a player you feel is being unreasonable about his salary

Couple of things. And I have never seen this addressed, although I do not read every post on this site. If you have mentioned it before, tip of the hat.

Dak was going into a year where he could, should, or would have been offered a contract past his rookie level of pay. The team re-upped Cooper without a great deal of problems. Zeke forced his pay raise. The board here was livid.

My opinion is Dak took his hard line position then when the team paid Zeke before they paid their QB. As far as business decisions, Zeke's move - I suspect that was his agent's idea - was brilliant. After-all this is a business that doesn't really give a rat's rectum about your feelings. I think Dak would have been more pliable to the team had they allowed Zeke to sit out.

Now I am a huge Zeke fan. But this contract shoving match he played on the team, while business wise was a smart move, caused at least some, if not most of the situation with Dak's contract we see.

*Convert Dak's tag status to Non-Exclusive after signing Andy Dalton.

*If Dak is signed by someone else, the team gets two 1st round choices. (Likelihood is subjective here that someone would pay that price.)
The added aspect is if Dak is truly what you think, a mediocre talent, then the team he goes to should not elevate making the first round choices at the bottom of the first round.

*Dak stays because no one wants him. You play him and let him walk after the season. But, you now are in a start over mode.

*If Dak is hired away. Give Dalton a year to show you what he has. If he reveals he has been limited by the Bengals and has a skill set which could translate to a deep play-off run, then bonus. But you have to resign him, and this starts all over again about what he is worth. He will demand a great deal of money and you have one year to see if he packs the gear. Your decision is made on a player who was either better than the league thought and you have found a great replacement. Or he was in a perfect storm in Dallas for one year and you just resigned a guy who will never reproduce his one year wonder.

*Accept, if Dalton turns out to be what he was in Cinny, now your team is in a serious rebuild. You have some contracts which are ridiculous since you do not have the seminal piece on offense. You now have pushed Zach, Gallup, T. Smith, J. Smith, Pollard, Vander Esch, Jarwyn, and Tank into the back half of their careers. Some will come up for new contracts, and since the team will be in a status of rebuild, and some are valuable, you will see an exodus of some talent that supports the top guys. Like Pollard. You might be able to jettison some of these contracts. Make some trades to ease the burden, but you are now in a major rebuild. And this team that once was at the top of this league for 40+ years is now the Cleveland Browns.

Let's say you can get to the top of the draft. If you held on to your stars, you still will need several years before this guy matures. And some of the people you rely on now are on short contracts.

But the biggest folly of all is thinking this QB that was drafted this year will end up being something special. Like Romo.

As far as the guy who called me out that this was a trap. Nice strawman argument. Deflection, what a thoughtful response.

You see, the point of this was coming up with a solution and not sit around complaining. This site is littered with a position of malcontents who want to regurgitate the same old non specific claims about Dak. It truly made the last year a beat down.

 

[HotDog37]

Dak is a good QB but I would like to have better. That said when you get better as in a tier 1 QB you then have to pay that tier 1 QB so much that you can't afford other good players (for very long). Dak isn't a tier 1 QB but he wants to be paid like one. That's my issue with him, since you said very plainly it was about "us" TD3.

-Let him play out with the tag and if he can't elevate his game to beat good teams - let him go. What do you think TwoDeeop3? This is now about_

 

[TwoDeep3]

Dak is a good QB but I would like to have better. That said when you get better as in a tier 1 QB you then have to pay that tier 1 QB so much that you can't afford other good players (for very long). Dak isn't a tier 1 QB but he wants to be paid like one. That's my issue with him, since you said very plainly it was about "us" TD3.

This idea behind this thread was to get people to give their solution to either keeping Dak or moving him and how that process would work.

If you read the initial post, this thread was not about why you think that. But about how you would resolve that. So this is not about me at all. This is also not why you think he doesn't live up to the salary.

This is about what your opinion is of how you rectify that situation.

I also might add in reading comprehension and following directions.

 

[DandyDon52]

I would trade Dak for the right deal but someone has to give me two first round picks for him.

Why not be reasonable, and ask for a 1, 2,3, and the # 2 could be the following year.
If you got all that for Dak that would be some good draft picks, and well worth it.

Seattle is the only team I know of to give 2 # 1's, for a player, but in their defense. it was for a guy who was top 3 at his position, and most people
would agree on that. It was still too much, so asking for 2 # 1's is just not sane in most situations .

 

[baltcowboy]

Why not be reasonable, and ask for a 1, 2,3, and the # 2 could be the following year.
If you got all that for Dak that would be some good draft picks, and well worth it.

Seattle is the only team I know of to give 2 # 1's, for a player, but in their defense. it was for a guy who was top 3 at his position, and most people
would agree on that. It was still too much, so asking for 2 # 1's is just not sane in most situations .

Quarterbacks are what the NFL wants out front and they protect them. Brady is 43 and still playing tells us all we need to know. Any All Pro starter is worth two first round picks. Tunsel a tackle got two, Ramsey got two playing cornerback, and a box safety got two as well. Granted these are all pro players. Dak is universally thought of as a top 10 quarterback, you have to be bring back a haul for him if you going to let him go. That is the business of football.

 

[1972COWBOY]

Dak does not stink. He is just not the SB quality QB Dallas needs unless he can run at will like he was allowed to do in his first season. With Dalton as a BU, they may allow Dak to run more.

 

[atlantacowboy]

I've been making this point all along.

Our best bet by far is with Prescott. It could take many, many years to find an upgrade, and this roster is nowhere near that bad where it needs to be fully rebuilt.

No, he isnt perfect, but yeah I'd love to hear the alternate plans for those who want him gone.

People say Dalton, which is laughable. He is a nice backup at this point. His best football is behind him and is wasnt exactly legendary.

Dak is a tier 2 QB just like Dalton was in his prime. But Dak wants to get paid like he's a perennial all-pro. Thats the issue.

Nobody playing QB in the NFL has done less with more talent around them than Dak.

 

[CowboyoWales]

I appreciate the responses. However, I have read every one and notice some of the people who continually rag on Dak have no answer on how to replace him.

You see this is not a simple task pinpointing how to remove a player you feel is being unreasonable about his salary

Couple of things. And I have never seen this addressed, although I do not read every post on this site. If you have mentioned it before, tip of the hat.

Dak was going into a year where he could, should, or would have been offered a contract past his rookie level of pay. The team re-upped Cooper without a great deal of problems. Zeke forced his pay raise. The board here was livid.

My opinion is Dak took his hard line position then when the team paid Zeke before they paid their QB. As far as business decisions, Zeke's move - I suspect that was his agent's idea - was brilliant. After-all this is a business that doesn't really give a rat's rectum about your feelings. I think Dak would have been more pliable to the team had they allowed Zeke to sit out.

Now I am a huge Zeke fan. But this contract shoving match he played on the team, while business wise was a smart move, caused at least some, if not most of the situation with Dak's contract we see.

*Convert Dak's tag status to Non-Exclusive after signing Andy Dalton.

*If Dak is signed by someone else, the team gets two 1st round choices. (Likelihood is subjective here that someone would pay that price.)
The added aspect is if Dak is truly what you think, a mediocre talent, then the team he goes to should not elevate making the first round choices at the bottom of the first round.

*Dak stays because no one wants him. You play him and let him walk after the season. But, you now are in a start over mode.

*If Dak is hired away. Give Dalton a year to show you what he has. If he reveals he has been limited by the Bengals and has a skill set which could translate to a deep play-off run, then bonus. But you have to resign him, and this starts all over again about what he is worth. He will demand a great deal of money and you have one year to see if he packs the gear. Your decision is made on a player who was either better than the league thought and you have found a great replacement. Or he was in a perfect storm in Dallas for one year and you just resigned a guy who will never reproduce his one year wonder.

*Accept, if Dalton turns out to be what he was in Cinny, now your team is in a serious rebuild. You have some contracts which are ridiculous since you do not have the seminal piece on offense. You now have pushed Zach, Gallup, T. Smith, J. Smith, Pollard, Vander Esch, Jarwyn, and Tank into the back half of their careers. Some will come up for new contracts, and since the team will be in a status of rebuild, and some are valuable, you will see an exodus of some talent that supports the top guys. Like Pollard. You might be able to jettison some of these contracts. Make some trades to ease the burden, but you are now in a major rebuild. And this team that once was at the top of this league for 40+ years is now the Cleveland Browns.

Let's say you can get to the top of the draft. If you held on to your stars, you still will need several years before this guy matures. And some of the people you rely on now are on short contracts.

But the biggest folly of all is thinking this QB that was drafted this year will end up being something special. Like Romo.

As far as the guy who called me out that this was a trap. Nice strawman argument. Deflection, what a thoughtful response.

You see, the point of this was coming up with a solution and not sit around complaining. This site is littered with a position of malcontents who want to regurgitate the same old non specific claims about Dak. It truly made the last year a beat down.

So what about us Cowboys fans, how like Dak and would love him to sign a long contract, but acknowledge the position we are in, namely:

1) Dak could well have been signed before Coop and Zeke if he didnt have a statistical down year in 2018.....thats the reason he failed to sign as his agent correctly assumed he'd be low balled.
2) Our CAP position over the next 4 years is tight, even with restructuring contracts, its going to be tight.
3) If we sign Dak to the short contract he wants, there may well not be the flexibility to make any free agent signing (and im not just saying elite players, im saying mediocre to good).
4) MM may want his man.
5) MM coming into a new role MAY want to work with the players rather than being restricted with having no flexibility.
6) MM may think that a mediocre QB (Dalton) and money to spend in areas of weakness is preferable to paying a very good (near elite if you like) QB like Dak with no money to improve areas of the team.
7) MM may have the opinion that a team is only as good as its weakest element and that this talented Offense can operate with a second tier QB.
8) MM may look second tier (he may know who he'd like) and get the type of QB he wants until the right one becomes available in the draft.

 

[MWH1967]

He didn't wait. Dak wouldn't negotiate. He insisted on a maxed out contract.

I usually dont comment on this subject much but, if he would have just taken a "Fair" contract he would have made the rest up in no taxes and indorsements.

He is a member of mericas team..That right there counts for alot.

 

[Flamma]

Dak was going into a year where he could, should, or would have been offered a contract past his rookie level of pay. The team re-upped Cooper without a great deal of problems. Zeke forced his pay raise. The board here was livid.

My opinion is Dak took his hard line position then when the team paid Zeke before they paid their QB. As far as business decisions, Zeke's move - I suspect that was his agent's idea - was brilliant. After-all this is a business that doesn't really give a rat's rectum about your feelings. I think Dak would have been more pliable to the team had they allowed Zeke to sit out.

Now I am a huge Zeke fan. But this contract shoving match he played on the team, while business wise was a smart move, caused at least some, if not most of the situation with Dak's contract we see.

A few things. I've been told repeatedly that Dallas tried to pay Dak after year 3 but he wanted to wait. That's the same year Zeke got his extension. You say people were livid about that, and they were. There's a couple of reasons for that.

Most fans are fans of the game and fans of the team. They're not fans of contract and cap details. Many don't quite understand how extensions work, or why he was paid after his 3rd year. You yourself said Zeke forced a pay raise. He got an extension and a bonus, he didn't get a pay raise.

You also have your fans that just didn't want to pay Zeke. Let him play out his 5 years and maybe tag him once and cut him loose. But paying Zeke after year 3 was the most cost effective time to give him an extension. The same was true for Dak. In fact, it was the only time to negotiate an extension. By waiting one more year it turned into a negotiation for a new contract, not an extension. That reason alone is more cap costly. Then if reports are true about Dak wanting a 4 year contract, that makes it even worse.

So what do you want to do next year? I don't see Dak accepting anything less than a 37 million a year contract. Because that's what he'd be getting on the tag, why accept less in a contract? You want to pay him that because you can't imagine someone else stepping in? Because there's a good chance we don't win a SB in the next 3-5 years with Dak getting paid nothing, let alone 37 million a year.

 

[Flamma]

So what about us Cowboys fans, how like Dak and would love him to sign a long contract, but acknowledge the position we are in, namely:

1) Dak could well have been signed before Coop and Zeke if he didnt have a statistical down year in 2018.....thats the reason he failed to sign as his agent correctly assumed he'd be low balled.
2) Our CAP position over the next 4 years is tight, even with restructuring contracts, its going to be tight.
3) If we sign Dak to the short contract he wants, there may well not be the flexibility to make any free agent signing (and im not just saying elite players, im saying mediocre to good).
4) MM may want his man.
5) MM coming into a new role MAY want to work with the players rather than being restricted with having no flexibility.
6) MM may think that a mediocre QB (Dalton) and money to spend in areas of weakness is preferable to paying a very good (near elite if you like) QB like Dak with no money to improve areas of the team.
7) MM may have the opinion that a team is only as good as its weakest element and that this talented Offense can operate with a second tier QB.
8) MM may look second tier (he may know who he'd like) and get the type of QB he wants until the right one becomes available in the draft.

All good points. Your #6 is how Parcells used to do it. He won two super bowls on defense and above average QBs. But he couldn't quite do it in the salary cap era though. Had he stayed we might have won one. He left right as the Cowboys peaked. At the very least we wouldn't have had that dismal 2008 season.

 

[DFWJC]

Fair enough, but I thought you said the Cowboys offered Dak more than Wilson.

I know that wasn't for me, but just chiming in.
It sounds like Dallas very well may've offered Dak a fraction more than Wilson.
I think Stephen said they offered to make Dak the second-highest-paid QB behind the unusual Mahomes deal--which was hard to compare due to duration.
If it was more than Wilson, it was just barely....say 35.1/yr average.

 

[Ranched]

 

[ondaedg]

The Dallas window is this year.

If the team again doesn't make it past the divisional round a change at QB will be made..

so if he has a good year and the D and special teams lay an egg they’re going to make a QB change?