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again obama stops a bush policy only to restart it

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by iceberg, May 2, 2009.

  1. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed Zone Supporter

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    it does seem that obama loves to say BAD BUSH, shut down his policies, only to put them back later. any else notice this?

    Obama may revive Guantanamo military courts

    Source: System once branded a 'failure' by president could be reinstated

    [IMG]
    A detainee is carried on a stretcher before being interrogated by military officials at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on Feb. 2, 2002.

    By William Glaberson
    [IMG]
    updated 5:14 a.m. CT, Sat., May 2, 2009

    The Obama administration is moving toward reviving the military commission system for prosecuting Guantánamo detainees, which was a target of critics during the Bush administration, including Mr. Obama himself.

    Officials said the first public moves could come as soon as next week, perhaps in filings to military judges at the United States naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, outlining an administration plan to amend the Bush administration’s system to provide more legal protections for terrorism suspects.

    Continuing the military commissions in any form would probably prompt sharp criticism from human rights groups as well as some of Mr. Obama’s political allies because the troubled system became an emblem of the effort to use Guantánamo to avoid the American legal system.

    Officials who work on the Guantánamo issue say administration lawyers have become concerned that they would face significant obstacles to trying some terrorism suspects in federal courts. Judges might make it difficult to prosecute detainees who were subjected to brutal treatment or for prosecutors to use hearsay evidence gathered by intelligence agencies.

    Obama administration officials — and Mr. Obama himself — have said in the past that they were not ruling out prosecutions in the military commission system. But senior officials have emphasized that they prefer to prosecute terrorism suspects in existing American courts. When President Obama suspended Guantánamo cases after his inauguration on Jan. 20, many participants said the military commission system appeared dead.

    Shifting mood
    But in recent days a variety of officials involved in the deliberations say that after administration lawyers examined many of the cases, the mood shifted toward using military commissions to prosecute some detainees, perhaps including those charged with coordinating the Sept. 11 attacks.

    “The more they look at it,” said one official, “the more commissions don’t look as bad as they did on Jan. 20.”

    Several officials insisted on anonymity because the administration has directed that no one publicly discuss the deliberations.

    Administration officials said Friday that some detainees would be prosecuted in federal courts and noted that Mr. Obama had always left open the possibility of using military commissions.

    Still, during the presidential campaign Mr. Obama criticized the commissions, saying that “by any measure our system of trying detainees has been an enormous failure,” and declaring that as president he would “reject the Military Commissions Act.”

    The military commissions, which were established specifically for trying Guantánamo detainees, have been subject to repeated delays and court challenges that argued that detainees were being denied basic rights of American law. Only two trials have been completed in the nearly eight years since the Bush administration announced that it would use military tribunals.

    Any plan to adjust the military commissions would walk a tightrope of granting the suspects more rights yet stopping short of affording them the rights available to defendants in American courts. Several lawyers say the commissions are only beneficial for the government if they make it easier to win a prosecution than it would be in federal court.


    The Bush administration’s commission system was criticized in part because it permitted evidence that would often be barred in federal court, like evidence obtained through coercive interrogations and hearsay.

    The administration is likely to make it more difficult for prosecutors to admit hearsay, while not excluding it entirely, the lawyers said. The hearsay issue is central to many Guantánamo cases because they are based on intelligence reports and detainees may never be permitted to cross-examine the sources of those reports.

    Human rights groups said Friday that using any form of military commission would be seen as permitting shortcuts that would not be available in existing American courts.

    Anthony D. Romero, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said that Mr. Obama had pledged to return the country to the rule of law and that “continuing with the military commission system would be a retreat from that promise.”

    Gabor Rona, the international legal director of Human Rights First, said military commissions would only be necessary if the administration wanted to assure convictions that might not otherwise be certain.

    “The administration is making a huge mistake,” Mr. Rona said, “if they believe getting convictions through suspect methods is more valuable than letting justice take its course.”

    It is not clear how many of the remaining 241 detainees are likely to be prosecuted. The four-month suspension of military commission proceedings Mr. Obama ordered is to end May 20. As a result, administration officials are considering whether to ask military judges at Guantánamo for an additional delay. In making such a request, administration lawyers might outline their proposed changes.

    In recent days, senior administration officials have hinted publicly that commissions were far from dead, yet offered no specifics and their comments drew little attention. In Congressional testimony on Thursday, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said, “The commissions are still very much on the table.”

    In a news conference this week, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. emphasized that if the administration did use military commissions, the rules must give detainees “a maximum amount of due process.”

    But, speaking of detainees whom American officials have accused of involvement in major terrorist plots, Mr. Holder added, “It may be difficult for some of those high-value detainees to be tried in a normal federal court.”

    This story, "U.S. May Revive Guantánamo Military Courts", originally appeared in The New York Times.
  2. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    He has to pander to the nutcases in his party. If only for a while. Eventually people will realize he's much more of a moderate than he had to portray himself in the Democratic primary.
  3. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed Zone Supporter

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    possible. if this turns out to be true i may like him more after all.

    being moderate that is. : )
  4. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    He is NOT a moderate. He is a liberal. Now he may be showing some common sense here but elsewhere he has toed the liberal line.
  5. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    He is far from a Moderate. He is doing this because he realizes that the best possible solution was the one that the Bush Administration originally put in place. It's easy for the public to say that Bush did nothing right but it doesn't hold much water IMO. The Bush administration did it this way for reasons. I just believe that the Obama Administration is coming to this realization.
  6. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    Of course the party line is to constantly demonize the other guy even if he is actually a moderate.
  7. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, I guess if you don't see him as Left, that probably says more about you then anything.

    One man's treasure I suppose.
  8. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    OGT you are being willfully blind if you try and call anything but a liberal (like them trying to call themselves progressives= its BS)
    His entire voting history both in the senate and in Illinois, his public stances and speeches, and everything else for all his public time has stamped him as a liberal.
  9. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    I just see through the political rhetoric. George W. Bush was pretty moderate as well. People claimed he was part of the "religious right" at the time, but that was obviously not true. He didn't support anti-gay legislative measures, etc. There are whackos on both sides of the political spectrum, and unfortunately they tend to vote the most, so presidents have a need to pander to those people. But when it comes down to taking actions, they tend more moderate -- as we see here.

    Continue away spouting the party line, though. I'm certainly not going to try and stop anyone from doing that. Everyone has the right to be a political hack.
  10. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, I don't know what to tell you Theo. He's left in my book and I don't see any rhetoric to it. What I've observed is that he tried to go a different way on this thing and it has not proven to be succesful. At the end of the day, his best option is the one he started with.

    As for Bush, he did try too hard to please the left and it cost him and the Republican party. Religiously, I think he is pretty Conservative but many of his other political views are moderate to left in my opnion. I would not call him a Conservative.
  11. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    Let's see...he talked uber-liberal about Iraq, but backed down on that when it came time to take action. He talked uber-liberal about taxes, but almost completely did a 180 on that once he got closer to the election and now that he's in office. He talked uber-liberal about shutting down the guantanamo/military tribunals/etc. and is now reversing on that. In his press conference the other night, one reported called him out about reversing his stance on some sort of legislation about abortion.

    I'm sure there are a number of other issues I'm not thinking of at the moment where he talked the uber-liberal talk during the primaries and has now done a complete reversal. The reality is that while the balance of power has shifted to the Democrats, there hasn't been that big of a shift in general political philosophy of the country. The Democrats in power have just gotten more conservative to align themselves with political reality.

    But there's also still the reality that in order to get past the Democratic primary, you have to be uber-liberal. That will likely always be the case, and so their candidates are always going to sound liberal early on. From stories I've heard from people I trust that know Obama close (long before he ran) he's a very moderate, almost a conservative in a lot of areas. He's very far from the uber-liberal that many portray him to be.
  12. ArmoredSaint

    ArmoredSaint New Member

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    Reason Magazine, a libertarian monthly, commented on Obama's policies vis-a-vis Gitmo in its latest issue:

    The Indefinite Future of Indefinite Detention

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