1. Welcome to CowboysZone!  Join us!  Come on!  You know you want to!

News: Archer: Cowboys coaches, scouts get on same page

Discussion in 'News Zone' started by WoodysGirl, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

    5,148 Messages
    616 Likes Received
    Can't complain one bit about our 1st round pick (Frederick plus T. Williams) so I guess this is the fallback complaint. Funny stuff.
  2. WV Cowboy

    WV Cowboy Waitin' on the 6th

    10,508 Messages
    902 Likes Received
    You think we will always just 'get lucky' after every poor decision?

    Even Jones said they dropped the ball: - - "That was unfortunate with Sharrif," executive vice president Stephen Jones said. "I don't want to single a guy out, but I think that can happen when you change a system. You move from what we were doing and we were so into that, and then all of a sudden you move to a 4-3 and you've got new coaches in the room and what they're trying to accomplish and that kind of slipped through the cracks a bit on us. It won't happen again."

    Nobody is saying Fred or TWill didn't turn out, .. but poor decisions will catch up to you sooner or later.
    Common Sense likes this.
  3. Nirvana

    Nirvana Well-Known Member

    3,298 Messages
    603 Likes Received
    The poor decision would have been to take Floyd, which did not happen. Accident averted. Corrections made (McClay coordinates the whole thing now.)
  4. WV Cowboy

    WV Cowboy Waitin' on the 6th

    10,508 Messages
    902 Likes Received
    Not being prepared then.

    Not have every base covered, and be 100% prepared for the draft??
  5. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

    11,622 Messages
    636 Likes Received
    It wasn't a poor decision and Jones isn't saying they dropped the ball with not picking Sharrif.

    What he's saying is that he should not have been rated that high given that the scheme changed.

    I think what worries me is why the scouts were not on top of this. It doesn't take a genius scout to figure out that Kiffin doesn't run a 3-4 and what type of players they like on the D-Line. And Kiffin wasn't a last second hire. Yet, they just plowed thru and rated Floyd like scheme didn't matter and got into a tissy fit when somebody overruled them and made some sense out of the situation.

    I think that is what gets me more than anything. It's really embarrassing that the scouts were that clueless.

    As far as the actual draft goes, I think you have to wonder what other players they scouted and rated while being oblivious to scheme.





    YR
    dmq and Common Sense like this.
  6. jobberone

    jobberone Save the Snow Leopard Staff Member

    35,326 Messages
    2,732 Likes Received
    Well, I'm not a professional player personnel guy but I don't value the 1 in the first unless they are very exceptional. In fact I wouldn't even call them a 1. I'd call them a 3 who can anchor the 1 and push the middle. They are few and far between. Esp those who can do that consistently without coming out too often for a blow.
  7. jobberone

    jobberone Save the Snow Leopard Staff Member

    35,326 Messages
    2,732 Likes Received
    Balderdash.
  8. jobberone

    jobberone Save the Snow Leopard Staff Member

    35,326 Messages
    2,732 Likes Received
    I guess no one read @WoodysGirl's follow up post.
  9. WV Cowboy

    WV Cowboy Waitin' on the 6th

    10,508 Messages
    902 Likes Received
    It does seem that guys that are built to clog the middle do need to come out and rest often.

    Hard to have great endurance when you are built to push the middle.
    jobberone likes this.
  10. jobberone

    jobberone Save the Snow Leopard Staff Member

    35,326 Messages
    2,732 Likes Received
    Yeah, those guys aren't too common.
  11. Picksix

    Picksix A Work in Progress

    4,606 Messages
    631 Likes Received
    We didn't reach for Freddy. We had him ranked in the 20's on our board. Sure, the Mayock's and Kiper's of the world had him ranked lower, but they don't work for teams, and we don't know where other teams had him ranked. When you see guys like Pugh and Long going at 19/20, that means OL as a whole were being drafted sooner than most pundits thought they would. Would Fred still have been there at 47? Maybe, but unless you're privy to every other teams' boards, there's really no way to know. One reason we had him ranked so high, was that along with his ability and versatility, he was incredibly intelligent. Gil Brandt told the story of how Callahan visited with Fred at one point, and gave him 23 different protection schemes, saying that if they drafted him, he would ask Fred to reproduce those schemes. Fred didn't take any notes. Just took it all in. After he was drafted, Callahan tested him, and he got every protection right. He graduated in 3 years with an engineering degree. For a team that gets criticized for not having many players with a high FB IQ, this guy warranted a late first round pick. If we felt that high about him, have to believe other teams did, too.
    dogberry likes this.
  12. Common Sense

    Common Sense Well-Known Member

    1,435 Messages
    446 Likes Received
    Don't forget about Everett Dawkins in the third.
  13. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

    5,148 Messages
    616 Likes Received
    Meh. It worked out last year and it sounds like they learned from the mistake. If it happens again, heads should roll.
  14. WV Cowboy

    WV Cowboy Waitin' on the 6th

    10,508 Messages
    902 Likes Received
    Cross your fingers.
    Nav22 likes this.
  15. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

    19,836 Messages
    5,416 Likes Received
    It's a bad idea to let coaches have so much input into the draft board.

    They coach the talent. Let the scouts find the talent. And build your scheme around the talent you can acquire.

    It's scary that Stephen thinks everything's fixed now that the coaching staff will compromise the draft board the scouts spend all year to put together.
    snapper likes this.
  16. Tex

    Tex Active Member

    553 Messages
    34 Likes Received
    No they put the board together wrongt and its shows a dysfunctional atmosphere at VR with the scouts and coaches.

    No the scouts job is to find the talent the fits the scheme! Their job is to work closely with the coaches to understand what type of football player the coaches need. And put their board together based on that knowledge. We went through this with Parcels when we went to the 3-4. Not unreasonable to expect the scouts to listen to what the coaches need in this 4-3.

    Crap I am sooo glad we didnt draft shariff floyd who didnt fit this scheme well at all.

    You pick a safety that FITS THIS SCHEME. You pick a 3 tech that fits this scheme. You dont draft a bunch of pieces that dont fit and wonder why your defense still sucks.
  17. rockj7

    rockj7 Active Member

    794 Messages
    124 Likes Received
    Seriously the highlight to me last year was the secret sauce quote that was classic
  18. Bullflop

    Bullflop Well-Known Member

    1,687 Messages
    351 Likes Received
    Kiffin and Marinelli were selling Jerry on the notion that they could flourish with the DL candidates already on hand and Jerry fell for it hook, line and sinker. That's what happens when you have a gullible GM in charge. They told Jerry what he wanted to hear and he bit. Now, here's Stephen trying to cover his tracks. Pathetic.
    daveferr33 likes this.
  19. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

    11,622 Messages
    636 Likes Received
    I think that is the absolute wrong way to do it.

    If you are a 3-4 coach and have had success with the 3-4, then you need to find a way to get the 3-4 scheme built and find 3-4 players and you need scouts to take that into consideration. The same with a 4-3. You don't see Pete Carroll going after small 'cover corners' or big, lumbering linebackers.

    It's one thing if you have a very successful defense and you're trying to change the scheme and personnel doesn't fit into it. But that hasn't been the case with the Cowboys. The defense has struggled since 2010 and if they stayed healthy, we had personnel to fit into the 4-3 except for Bruce Carter falling off the face of the earth.

    I don't think Kiffin and Marinelli's input was too large. They weren't specifically scouting certain players in the latter rounds. They weren't even scouting a player in the 2nd round. They just said that Floyd doesn't fit their scheme. And I'm not going to question Marinelli's opinion on a D-Lineman.

    It's much like how Jimmy complained that Jerry wouldn't trust his experience as a coach and what he wanted in talent. Yet, when Jerry goes with Marinelli and Kifin's opinion (and it works out to our advantage)...we change our tune.

    Don't get me wrong, it's embarrassing to me that the scouts were so clueless as to what type of DT Kiffin/Marinelli like when I could even tell that from just having watched Kiffini's defenses over the years. But there is no reason in this case for the scouts to not grade players with the scheme in mind. And that to me is a Jerry problem since getting scouts clued into what they are trying to accomplish with the draft is part of the GM's job. It's just the scouts that threw a tissy fit over this should really look in the mirror as well.








    YR
    pancakeman likes this.
  20. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

    19,836 Messages
    5,416 Likes Received

    The reason why you're wrong is you are drafting for need. The NFL Draft is about acquiring talent. You don't enter it with tunnel vision and a fixation of scheme fit. Because schemes come and go. You don't want to miss out on top talent if the opportunity presents itself.

    You take the talent. The scouts know a heck of a lot more about the talent than the coaches ever will. So those are the guys I'm listening to. The coaches can make coffee runs.

Share This Page