Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by Cajuncowboy, Dec 4, 2004.
No kidding I have seen FF drafts that are better then this.
I think much of Roys problems can be solved if he knocked off 15-20lbs.
Kinda like Mike Irvin and Randy Moss huh?
someone else on this board mentioned too that maybe becoming engaged might be a distraction...don't know if that's true or not but it deserves
I have watched both, but in all fairness I haven't seen a lot of either. Unfortunately, like a lot of draft fans, I have to rely on scouting reports from magazines and websites for most of my information on players. Living in the Southeast, I get to see a lot of SEC, ACC and Big East but the Big Ten and PAC 10, I see less of.
I have an opinion that at WR you need to have great hands and be able to play the ball above all else. Speed, route running, etc. come later.
I have read several reports on both players and it seems like every one I read about Williams says he has great hands, is able to snatch the ball and can catch the long balls at their highest point. Are they all right? I don't know for sure because I can't watch film and decide for myself, but you'd have to think that if every one who does thinks the guy has great hands, then he probably does.
On the contrary, it seems as if every report on Edwards says he's a great athlete, is fast and strong, but he has difficulty sometimes catching the easy pass. Is that right? Again, I don't know, but if almost everyone says his hands aren't so hot then I tend to go with that.
That's why I say I'd much rather have Williams than Edwards. That and the fact that I hate it when people fall in love with a guy because his measurables are great, (usually far exceeding their college production, i.e. Mamula, Robertson, Blair Thomas) while great players are passed up for lack of measurables (Emmitt Smith, Zach Thomas, Terrell Suggs).
It's not having a favorite, it's preferring WR's who can catch when the ball actually gets there. If by some chance all the people who evaluate talent for a living are wrong that William's has great hands and that Edward's hands are average at best... well then, my opinion of the two would certainly change.
Are you saying that they are all wrong and that Edward's hands are just as good as William's? If that's the case, perhaps I do need to re-think which player I'd rather have the Cowboy's draft.
very nice post...i agree 100%
I have seen little of Williams and even less of Edwards.
What I have seen of Williams was him using his size and hands to make incredible catches.
I have only seen a few minutes of a game (OSU this year) with Edwards. I was amazed at his size. I though he was around 6'0 not 6'4". But I wasn't impressed when he dropped that 4th down pass near the end. A big time receiver has to make that play, especially in college when he appears to be head and shoulders above everybody else, athletically, on the field.
I wouldn't whine if we ended up with Williams in the first, and I say NO to Edwards. But I'd rather pick defense with that first pick. If Brooks or Johnson is there when we pick first, he's my pick.
couldn't have said it better myself....
And those of you who think Braylon will be great in the NFL need only look to David Terrell. Is there anything that Braylon has done that Terrell didn't at U of Mich? They're like photocopies of each other during their college days...and we all know how Terrell turned out. U of Mich WRs...no way. I hope Braylon does well cuz I like Michigan and Braylon a lot, but I'm not willing to spend a first to find out. Mike Williams is the only WR that we should consider using a first on.
This kind of logic ceases to amaze me with its stupidity. So because one player who played the same position at the same school means that he'll be just as bad (or good) as a current player.
So teams should stay away from A Rolle because M. Rumph. Or that A. Hawthorne won't be any good because W. Bryant hasn't done anything in the NFL. When was the last time VA had a LB like A Brooks? Good forbid anyone pick him in the draft with the history of LB's who have come from that school.
And not since Tommy Nobiss has Texas has anything like D. Johnson and that was over 30 years ago. Better stay away from him huh? Or lets keep our fingers crosses and hope that Drew Olsen comes out early. Forget about Paus, McNown, and Madox. Troy Aikman went to UCLA and played QB so that's all that counts.
Its as riddiculous as it gets.
I could be wrong but I don't remember Irvin having a tag for bad character until after he was in the Pros.
Williams, BTW, is the one with the Irvin like qualities as a WR, not Edwards.
Time will tell Hos
It's your logic that is amazing me with its stupidity. It wasnt just David Terrell, but also Marcus Walker (who is no longer in the league) and even Desmond Howard (if you want me to take it back a little). It seems to me that Michigan WR's dont get to the level in the NFL that they did in college. And that scares me away from them, just like a RB from Penn St would.
Mike Williams ran a 4.55 forty at his workout last year. For a WR who is 6'5 " and 230 lbs that is plenty fast to get seperation. WR's dont only get sereration with their speed. They also get it with their strength (which Williams has plenty of), acceleration, and route running.
Unless Edward runs in the 4.2's at his workout then this discussion should be moot. Because his speed advantage is just not that great. This is a kid who wouldve been hard pressed to get drafted in the first round last year. And he had virtually NO chance of being drafted in the top half of round one. But Williams on the other hand just might've been drafted in the top 10 AS A SOPHOMORE!!!!!!!!! Read that over and over and let it sit in your brain. AS A SOPHOMORE!!!!!!!
Seperation is achieved by quickness in and out of the breaks scout. Slants, digs, skinny post, and quick outs. Lawyer Tillman, Victor Bailey, Germane Crowell, Sylvester Morris, and Kelly Washington, All bigger than average WR's with good 40 x's failed to have any kind of success in spite of their size, strength and straight line speed because they couldn't get away from NFL CB's! Straight line speed will only go so far when 90% of all routes involve making somekind of cut. Suddeness.
And the FACT still remains, just because 1 or 2 past players from any school have had success or fail to obtain success has nothing to do with the present player.
You should have learned this one of 13 logical fallacy as a sophmore in H.S., AS A SOPHOMORE!!!!!!!
SLIPPERY SLOPE (thin entering wedge): a type of causal reasoning in which it is argued that an apparently small cause will lead to a major effect, when there is no evidence of such a causal relationship.
Allow me to light that for you
What did Mike Irvin run in the 40? I know his speed was not that great as well as Key's speed is not that great either. I have seen Mike Williams in person and the dude is amazing. I also don't buy your weak Pac-10 corners argument. Marcus Trufant, Will Poole & Matt Ware were all solid CB's in college.
Did anyone read what I said in my original? I said that it was a close call. I do think Edwards will be a better NFL WR but never did I imply that Williams was going to be a dog. I have not seen Williams in person but have seen most of his games, great talent I just think that he will struggle some at creating some space between himself and the DB coming out of his breaks. Compared to a player of comprable size like T.O. (6-4 225) he isn't as sudden and isn't as explosive out of his breaks.
Eugene Wilson, Chris Gamble, and going against Jeremy LeSueur and Marlin Jackson in practice for the last 2-3 years probably proved to be a pretty good challenge, ya think?
Besides overall the defenses in the Pac 10 from top to bottom can't compare to Big 10 defenses.
C'mon man!!! Give me a break. Germaine Crowell? Slyvester Morris? These guys both had knee problems. Crowell having a couple of 1000 yard seasons for the Lions before his knees actually blew out. And he was a 3rd round pick. Morris? He never got started in the league (because of his knees). And then you bring up Washington? He also was a third round pick and is still only in his 2nd year after an injury plagued rookie campaign. Yet, he is in the Bengals routation at WR.
But its strange you bring up these big WR's and fail to mention the top WR from 2003's draft: Anquan Boldin. The same Anquan Boldin who ran a high 4.6 forty at his pro day. He was the only rookie WR that went to the pro bowl. That includes such speedsters as Andre Johnson, Charles Rogers, Bryant Johnson, Bethel Johnson, and Taylor Jacobs. All of those players had a HUGE speed advantage on Boldin and it meant NOTHING. Why? Because Boldin ran superior routes, has great body control, and excellent hands. All traits of Mike Williams. But Williams is still faster than Boldin and alot bigger.
What makes Williams great is he is an EXCELLENT ROUTE RUNNER. Yes, that means he gets in and out of his cuts extremely fast. He has great "suddeness" (if that is a word. I guess you learned that one in High School, lol). He will have no problem getting away from NFL CB's, just like he didnt have any problems getting away from college CB's as a freshman. And he wont have any problems holding onto the ball no matter how easy or hard the catch is supposed to be (like some people).
And you can throw out all the definitions you want from your dictionary. But you should read them first and then write. Especially the definition following Slippery Slope.
OK so here's what it comes down to, we think that both WR's are good recievers, except I think that Williams will struggle against bigger more athletic CB's because he's not as quick as Edwards in and out of his breaks (IMO).
You think I would be P.O'ed to see Williams get drafted by Dallas? C'mon
Also, suddenness is defined by Websters, you've heard of this guy right?
sud·den ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sdn)
Happening without warning; unforeseen: a sudden storm.
Characterized by hastiness; abrupt or rash: a sudden decision. See Synonyms at impetuous.
Characterized by rapidity; quick and swift.
all of a sudden
Very quickly and unexpectedly; suddenly.
[Middle English sodain, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *subitnus, from Latin subitneus, from subitus, from past participle of subre, to approach stealthily : sub-, secretly; see sub- + re, to go; see ei- in Indo-European Roots.]
We have two different opinions of two seperate player.
All I'm saying is think of Braylon Edwards as Turrets syndrome in a helmet and shoulder pads.
Is that a vivid enough picture for you?
Wow not only did I learn something about some W/R but I also learned me some English! Now there is a quality post right there. A 2 for 1.
I personally don't have an opinion of Mike Williams as I haven't seen him play much. If he's available and he's as good as his stats from the two years he played, maybe he's an option. I don't think wide receiver is our number one priority, no matter how good he is, though.
Out of curiousity, I did a little nosing around with all the Michigan WR/bust stuff going around and compared receivers taken from the two schools in the 1st round since 83.
The best WR out of USC picked in the 1st round in the last 20 years was Keyshawn. Curtis Conway had a solid career and Johnnie Morton has had a solid career.
Derrick Alexander was probably the best to come out of Michigan in the same time frame. Desmond Howard was an ordinary receiver/good returner.
David Terrell's widely considered a bust, but he's never had a chance to develop a relationship with a QB. That can make a difference. (From 01-04, 13 different QBs, 8 with significant playing time. Of these 13, only 3 had a YPA avg. over 6. The team QB rating in that period has been 68.1)
Now don't bash me or anything. I'm not saying that Mike Williams isn't going to be a good player. All I'm saying is, neither USC or Michigan have been churning out pro bowlers at the receiver position. Of all of them, Keyshawn has had the most productive career.
(The work of someone who is bored, has time on his hands, and enjoys compiling lists such as this.)
0 pro bowls
1X NFL top 10 in catches
1,000+ yds 3/12 years
0 pro bowls
1X NFL top 10 in catches
1,000+ yds 4/11 years
3 pro bowls
3X NFL top 10 in catches
2X NFL top 10 in rec. yards
1X NFL top 10 in rec. TDs
1X NFL top 10 in rush/rec. TDs
1,000+ 4/9 years(On pace for 955 in '04)
R. Jay Soward
1 Pro Bowl(As returner?)
1,000+ 0/9 years
1X NFL top 10 rec. yards
3X NFL top 10 rec. TDs
1,000+ 3/9 years
I have too much time on my hands.