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Disobedience of the Scientific Method is going to kill the NFL

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by erod, Oct 10, 2013.

  1. jrumann59

    jrumann59 Well-Known Member

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    I am not going call out and out BS. But lets think about this for the most part. Most scientists that were at colleges were probably denied funds or grants because of the athletic department. They were probably bullied by "football" players I am not saying studies are biased but one would think that some of these scientists have a bone to pick with athletics.
  2. dexternjack

    dexternjack World Traveler Zone Supporter

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    I don't know what to think really, but this is some fantastic material for a 1980's Brat Pack movie.

    This isn't Jr High or even High School and I don't think they hold grudges despite the number of swirlies they may have been subjected to during their childhood.

    The top Universities receive a lot of money for research, even more that the athletic programs. This is of course excluding the obvious schools like LSU, Alabama and the like.
    visionary likes this.
  3. CrownCowboy

    CrownCowboy Active Member

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    Yep.

    They are grown men and are capable of making their own decisions and weigh the pros and cons to playing football. If they think that possible injury that could debilitate them later on in life is not worth the money, they simply don't have to play and do something else.

    It's as simple as that.
    Rack Bauer likes this.
  4. nicomachus

    nicomachus New Member

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    Thanks. I listened to his interview via "theunticket." I found the statement you mentioned.
    A couple of things. The researchers at the BU CTE Center aren't the only doctors who have found CTE in deceased NFL players. I'd be interested to know whom Aikman has conversed with on the topic. Former NFL players? Doctors who specialize in the field? It's hard for me to imagine anyone thoroughly familiar with the subject to deny the existence of CTE.

    I was also struck by something else Aikman said in the interview.
    I assume he means work done by the professionals at the BU CTE Center. AIkman's concern was addressed in the documentary from researchers at that center. As one example, here is a quote from Dr. Robert Kearn, a neuropsychologist at the BU CTE Center.
    In your original post I thought you were talking about the film, but what you were actually discussing was your own view on this topic as well as part of Aikman's interview where he discussed the documentary with The Musers. That explains why, for example, you referred to a Harvard study and Harvard scientists. When Aikman referred to Boston researchers you assumed he meant professionals that worked at Harvard.

    Anyway, I do find this subject fascinating If you or anyone else is seriously interested I can provide a bunch of research that has been done on the topic of the effect of head injuries on former NFL players.
  5. Stryker44

    Stryker44 Active Member

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    They are gladiators and paid enough to KILL if need be. Why is this an issue?
  6. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    The following article reports on the death rates I mentioned. It is published in the most respect outlet for Neurology research. It was subjected to a rigorous peer-review process. The findings are pretty clear. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http://nflconcussionlitigation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/EMBARGOED-NFL-Players-and-Death-From-ADALS-Lehman-titled-copy.pdf&ei=3TtYUsTJIOahiALptICgCQ&usg=AFQjCNGSHVK6Bjz3rXsb1dL-8YKgzsU1eA&sig2=7I-IsyLzhuFFyZ0FFjDGxw&bvm=bv.53899372,d.cGE&cad=rja

    But if you want names, here are three. Kevin Turner, Steve Gleason, and Steve Smith. All have ALS and are going to die from it. ALS is super rare but NFL players die from it (and other neurological diseases) at four times the rate of the general US population.

    If you don't think that is evidence, then you don't know what evidence is
  7. CowboyStar88

    CowboyStar88 Well-Known Member

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    Something that I was sitting here wondering about has I read this last paragraph by you. But I'm curious if the size if the athlete and the extensive training they do play a part in this.
  8. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    The size and training is what, many suspect, is accelerating problems. You've got bigger and stronger athletes colliding with greater force. That likely makes for more serious brain damage.
    visionary likes this.
  9. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a medical researcher, but I have provided research that has been up for Peer Review and understand the process.

    League of Denial is a must watch program for football fans and any parent considering having their child play football.

    The issue right now is the sample size and selection bias. Dr. Omalu's published work was based off of 2 samples, Mike Webster and Terry Long. I think Dr. Omalu discovered something we didn't know about football players and CTE. But, publishing scientific findings based off of 2 samples is entirely too small of a sample size to start generating any meaningful conclusion. I agree with the league on that notion. I disagree with them branding Dr. Omalu as 'unethical' unless he is manipulating the evidence.

    With Dr. McKee, the problem here is again...sample size. Only 46 samples. I believe for scientific study they would want at least 100 samples. And for something as important as this, you probably will want 500-1,000 samples. But, the 'selection bias' stems from players that people knew had some sort of brain damage. The key is to eventually get samples of those who seemed to have relatively healthy brains and to see if they showed CTE.

    But for McKee's standpoint....46 samples of players and 45 of them had CTE. That's a sample that isn't exactly small and the rate of players with CTE is 97.5%. Regardless of sample bias, that is alarming to have that high of a rate. And for somebody like Dr. McKee, it comes down to whether or not you feel like you should shout from the roof tops or keep doing research. It's not easy to do if you think about kids who could be inflicted with CTE before they are a senior in high school.

    To me, I agree with the league that there needs to be a lot more research to be done. In particular, I wonder about the effects that PED's and hits to the head have on players. The Steelers were rife with players that had serious issues that appeared to be mental health related and they were known as the team that admitted using steroids, rampantly, in the 70's. Webster admitted to using steroids. Then we have to remember Chris Benoit, another person inflicted with CTE who was a rampant steroid and HGH user.

    But, where I disagree with the league is the belief that the scientists have an agenda. Dr. Omalu wouldn't know a flee flicker from a flea market. And Dr. McKee is an avid fan of the game. All of the evidence so far shows that they have been onto something and that the league has repeatedly tried to deny or downplay CTE and its link to football.





    YR
    visionary and koolaid like this.
  10. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this but I think it is important to act on the knowledge that is presently available. Many people take a statement like this to mean that we shouldn't act until we know more and that is foolish.



    The whole agenda piece is part of a broader anti science attitude that is increasingly pervasive. And really, if you want to talk about agendas, who has the bigger investment here? Who stands to lose more? You answer those questions and it is pretty clear when the agenda finger pointing should be directed.
    visionary and pancakeman like this.
  11. CowboyStar88

    CowboyStar88 Well-Known Member

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    I think what I meant more then the size and that creating a greater force is just the sure size of the human cause other type of complications or increase the chance for brain damage. Not just talking in terms if hitting. I mean we know that wrestling has some issues and we know most if it's fake.
  12. jrumann59

    jrumann59 Well-Known Member

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    Yes because in the real world everyone that is held to high moral standards actually follows them. Science like any field is highly competitive and some cases researchers make "mistakes" trying to one up colleagues.
  13. erod

    erod Well-Known Member

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    The "anti-science agenda", as you call it, is well-founded. Look at the vast amount of science that has been reversed or disproven over the years.

    Even simple things. I was told my entire childhood by doctors and dentists that sugar will rot my teeth. Not true. Dairy products will though. I was told that sitting too close to the TV will ruin my eyes. Not true. Remember when stress caused ulcers? Not true, it's bacteria.

    In the early 90s, God help you if you had heterosexual relations with someone who was 10 partners removed from someone who had AIDS. We were all in grave danger of contracting this death sentence. Massively and irresponsibly overblown by "scientists". (How are Arthur Ashe's and Magic Johnson's wives still alive and HIV free?)

    Politics and money get involved, and "science" becomes much more like art these days.

    Once upon a time, it was the responsibility of the scientist to go to every possible length to DISPROVE his theory before stating it as scientific fact. Now, that's just not expeditious enough anymore.

    Of course there are implications of football and concussions, but to what extent? I think the massive amounts of PEDs these athletes have taken may have something to do with it, and I also think we're ignoring the overwhelming number of former players who aren't having issues later in life.
  14. theranchsucks

    theranchsucks Well-Known Member

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    I am not trying to argue the severity of this horrible disease or the lives it has and are ruining. But it happens in all walks of life, and to anyone and everyone. You have 3 names in a 30 year span.

    Approximately 5,600 people in the U.S. are diagnosed with ALS each year. There are approximately 30,000 cases of ALS in the U.S. at any given time.
  15. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    I took notice of that statement as well. I have to say that the number of people I know, who I have played football with or against, over the years, does not support that statement either. Perhaps it is different in the NFL but that statement is not specific to just the NFL. It seems to suggest all of Football.

    Just my opinion but Football, at all levels, has built more good and decent men then it has drug addicts and the like.
    theranchsucks likes this.
  16. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    This is the silliest thing I've heard. Like ever.

    The vast amount of science that has been reversed or disproven? You mean like situations where Time magazine trumping a single scientist's presentation as fact that the general public latched on to, despite the actual research literature already nearing consensus on the opposite conclusion? Or a single study linking autism to vaccination with that result being non-replicable? A huge flaw in the thinking here is confusing media reports of a single study or a single result to the body of knowledge on that topic.

    Scientific knowledge does change - it generally changes because we get new and better tools to use for evaluation. Science is, at its core, self-correcting. Built into the process is that there will be false discoveries -- odd results that if taken INDIVIDUALLY would amount to huge misinterpretations. That's why scientific facts result from continued replication of findings.
  17. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    and the rate is four times higher among those NFL players in the cited study.

    Yes. People all over get ALS, but you are ignoring that the rate is so much higher among ex-Players.
  18. theranchsucks

    theranchsucks Well-Known Member

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    3 football players in 30 years........6,000 people a year. I am sure you could find 3 baseball players in the past 30 years as well
  19. CowboyStar88

    CowboyStar88 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if you directed that at me. I was merely asking a simple question about human size.
  20. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

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    The scientific community often doesn't view it that way. And there is good reason for that. But, there is also good reason to treat what has been researched so far. It's a conundrum to say the least.






    YR

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