Global Warming Fellas...

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by ABQCOWBOY, Jul 19, 2007.

  1. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    Totally. All we need is one company to start going into full development, and then the rest would follow. Somebody has to make the commitment though. At the beginning it's going to cost a lot to perfect it so it can eventually be reasonably priced and easy to produce. That could take a while.
  2. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    You continue to confound a critique of a single study with a body of scientific research. Science isn't about ONE study -- it is about a program of research completed by different scientists. If you insist on focusing on that one study you should listen to what the National Research Council's review says -- that the conclusions reached by that study are largely supported - despite statistical limitations. More importantly, the NRC states clearly that the body of knowledge in the field clearly supports a global climate change interpretation.

    However, it seems that you focus exclusively on ONE critique of ONE aspect of ONE study. That's not what a body of scientific knowledge is about.
  3. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    You need to recognize that this "report" comes from the CATO institute -- CATO is a largely political institution with long ties to conservativism -- more recently, CATO has moved toward a more liberation view -- CATO's mission is to advocate policies that promote "individual liberty, limited government, free markets, and peace.”

    Choose whose opinion you want to believe -- that of scientists who value objective tests of hypotheses vs. those who have a specific political mission.
  4. Mavs Man

    Mavs Man All outta bubble gum

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    If there is indeed an insidious plot in play by Big Oil and the automobile industry to keep the internal combustion engine and gasoline dominant, why haven't Communist countries over the years stolen the patents and produced efficient cars on the cheap? Why not now in countries like China, or countries like Japan who have limited natural resources?
  5. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    You should see if you can catch the documentary called Who killed the electric car or something like that.

    Very interesting.

    In a nut shell a Cali panel decided that they wanted better emissions and zero emissions on a certain percentage of new cars sold by a certain year.

    General Motors hired a young group of people to work on an electric car to meet these goals.

    They produced a pretty nice little car. They produced a certain amount of cars but had really odd ball advertisement and did not seem to push the sales of it.

    As a matter of fact they refused to sell them to anyone and would only do it on a lease basis. They required the people that were going to lease the cars to have extensive interview/application. Mel Gibson was one and said he has never before or since then had to go through so much to get a car.

    After the Cali board changed the requirements GM dropped the program all together.

    Those that leased the cars were out of luck and they had to turn them in or they would come an get them.

    Many people wanted to BUY the car but GM REFUSED to sell them the cars.

    GM rounded up all the cars, sent them to a place somewhere out in the desert and Crushed and then shredded everyone of the cars except for one which is in an auto museum but even that one they made sure to take parts out of it so it can not even start let alone run.

    The only downside to the car was it would only go 60 miles before needing recharged. It had good speed and power, no emissions and was a nicely designed car (not ugly like the prius).

    But instead of letting those people buy the cars they destroyed them all.

    SO...there was a viable car, with cheaper fuel (electric), zero emissions, need for very little, if any, oil...rarely had any mechanical trouble mode of transportation and they killed it.

    Other things to consider. Of many different proposed things to use in ethanol...corn seems to be the worst but is the one they are going to use which increases prices of milk and other live stock items that use corn for feed.

    Also it so happens that some accuse members on the board that made the change in Cali with having business interests in the Hydrogen Cell idea for cars.

    This is the one that Arnold was talking about making a large area with Hydrogen cell fuel centers.

    The cost for the hydrogen Cell cars or to have a car fitted with one.
    The cost of the fuel itself
    And some other factors were all higher than the electric car that was put out.

    So you were paying more, while still having emissions, still requiring a combustion engine that required more oil.
  6. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    Can't speak for some of the countries but I do know many times overseas if you see the average vehicles they are V-6 powered at best. Some you see loads of what I call...Clown Cars. I don't even know if some of them are 4 cyc engines.

    My time in Korea I never seen a car that even approached being a V-8 car.

    Japan was actually starting to make an electric car as well but scrapped it later after the cali board changed it's stance.

    But another situation you have to look at here.

    It is not just the Oil industry that has play in this with the Auto industry.

    The internal combustion engine is not just the baby of the oil and auto manufactures.

    Think of all the other dealers that sell replacement parts.

    With an electric engine you would not need have of the items on a regular car, you would use lower oil, you would not need a catalytic converter, think of the lack of the need for mufflers. Not only does the electric car not need to filter the emissions for the combustion but they are quiet so they don't need that effect from a muffler either.

    You can think of so many things that go along with the combustion engine.

    And those items by MANY big dealers would be dead in the water.

    So it is not just the oil industry and the auto makers.
  7. trickblue

    trickblue Not Old School...Old Testament...

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    I agree... the car companies and oil industry work hand in hand... and they are a powerful lobby...

    Hopefully companies like Tesla Motors, who makes this electric car:


    Will gain some recognition... and this is a high performance 0-60 in > 4 seconds ride...

    Hopefully these can eventually gain some market share...
  8. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    The GM EV1 that was up and running but was killed by GM

    On a side note...Do any of you remember ever seeing and advertisment or read up on the EV1 back in the day?

    I know I did not or do not remember it.

    Even many in Cali at the time said they did not know it was out.

    I noted before that the main problem with it was that it needed recharged around 60 miles. However the man who was working on the batteries said he had already worked on batteries that would improve that amount of miles.
  9. AtlCB

    AtlCB Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, I think any move to electric cars also needs to be accompanied by building nuclear power plants. Our current power plants wouldn't be able to handle the increased demand in power, and any the extra electricity to recharge the cars would come from power plants that burn coal.
  10. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    Why does it all have to come from Coal?

    Why can people not think of Solar, Wind and Hydro electric facilities to help with the added energy needed?

    Just something to think about.

    At the very least with the electric you find yourself being less dependent on foreign oil, less reason to stick our noses in middle east business in order to obtain oil.
  11. AtlCB

    AtlCB Well-Known Member

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    Most power plants in this country burn coal.

    You have to have a river close by to use Hydro. You also have to build a dam and flood a large area of land. If this land is developed, you will have a serious legal battle on your hands.

    The technology for solar and wind are not to the point where they are practical.

    The problems with nuclear energy are the cost and the disposal of the waste. Energy is slightly more expensive than coal, but at least the pollution isn't in our air and water.

    I agree with this. I'm in favor of the electric car, but I think we need to have foresight into the problems that everyone having electric cars will produce. If we make sure that we have the extra energy capacity without raising pollution levels, we could find a solution that makes everyone happy (except the oil companies).

    The biggest problem with burning more coal is the sulfur dioxide that it produces. Coal contains much larger amounts of sulfur than oil. Your basically trading ozone and carbon monoxide for sulfur dioxide.
  12. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    See where I work, I can walk for about ten minutes and jump into the Ohio River.:D So screw all of you that don't have a river close to you. JUST KIDDING.

    I hate the idea of coal but I do have mixed feelings on it. WV, my state, is #2 or #1 (depending on what year and where you get your info) in coal production.

    So of course for my state it would be good to increase coal sales in order to help the state economy out.

    But that also causes problems with the state and safety they are willing to over look because of it.

    Was not long ago we had those miners die in the cave in.

    Plus I would rather go with renewable energy instead of more fuels that will eventually run out and or causes a good deal of pollution.

    So as I said, I have mixed feelings on that.

    However I think I would rule in favor of coal over oil just because of having to deal with the middle east...or if canada decides to be a pain with their oil.
  13. AtlCB

    AtlCB Well-Known Member

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    If that is the only option, I agree.
  14. Crown Royal

    Crown Royal Insulin Beware

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    Has hydrogen fuel cell technology been deemed inefficient? Is the technology just not there?
  15. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    I think it is a matter of cost right now.

    It is not cost effective so I have heard.
  16. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Lost in the Woods Zone Supporter

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    I don't mean to interject on this fascinating discussion of alternative technologies but what about another approach to slowly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels/foreign energy sources like, gasp, changing our lifestyle habits and conservation?
  17. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    You provide me a way to get to work everyday without using gasoline and that would change my lifestyle a great deal.

    The idea of taking trains or buses does not work in rural America as we do not have mass transit systems.

    People need to get to work and in doing so are caught having to use gas or not getting there. Even if you carpool you still are spending a great deal on gasoline because most times people are driving out of their way to get to a place to pick you up or drop you off.

    In smaller rural areas you take what jobs are in your area or you find yourself traveling hours daily for a better paying job that will make it even worse on your gas consumption.

    It is not an option of just deciding that today I am going to change my lifestyle and quit driving to work...or hop on a bicycle and ride for an hour or more to get to work in the middle of a West Virginia winter going up and down large hills.
  18. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Lost in the Woods Zone Supporter

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    There's no magic light switch that we can flick that will make an immediate difference. But people can start zoning differently in towns and cities so that industry and commerce are concentrated and easily accessible by public transport, people can make a point to buy local produce and eating seasonally, people could make a point to use energy-efficient light bulbs and turn off lights in rooms that are not currently occupied, etc., etc. There are little things that people can do that collectively will have a significant impact and big things we could do to slowly change the way our society is organized so that it is more sustainable that are not dependent on the invention of a revolutionary technology. That's all I'm suggesting.

    Although, if you really loved the earth Brain, you would brave those icy hills on your old rickety banana seat with ribbons streaming from the handles with relish and abandon. ;)
  19. AtlCB

    AtlCB Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to cycle to work if I had a safe place to do it and a shower at work. Unfortunately, they will run you over in Atlanta during rush hour. :eek:
  20. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Hunka Hunka Burning BP Staff Member

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    :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

    Well it would have to be a banana seat because my arse could not take a regular ten speed bicycle seat.:laugh2: :laugh2:

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