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Grading the DE/OLB tweeners... I'm bored

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by Silverstar, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    I was looking at all the DE/OLB tweeners, that the Cowboys might consider as Ellis' eventual replacement. I decided to go with a simple premise, that if Ware is our WSLB at 6-4 257lbs, then our SSLB should be at least heavier than that right?

    Right or wrong, that's how I feel about it and that's who I decided to look for in this draft. So, I started looking for tweeners at least 6020 inches tall and weighing 260 to 275lbs at the most. Then, I wanted a prospect that could run at least a 4.75 forty, a 1.60 or better 10 yard dash, a 3 cone drill of 7.20 or better and at least 25 reps. To me, that's adequate speed/strength to cause pressure from the LOS, cover a TE downfield or change directions in space by a SSLB in a 3-4.

    Using these measurables and their best numbers at either the combine or campus workouts, I came up with only 4 prospects!

    Winners

    Anthony Spencer - 6027, 261, 4.69, 1.56, 7.14, 30 Reps
    Brian Robison - 6031, 260, 4.67, 1.49, 6.89, 27 reps
    Jay Moore - 6046, 274, 4.74, 1.59, 7.19, 26 reps
    CJ Ah You - 6036, 274, 4.70, 1.53, 7.06, 26 reps


    Losers

    Gaines Adams - 6046, 260, 4.64, 1.58, 7.17, 21 reps
    Jarvis Moss - 6064, 258 (soaking wet) 4.70, 1.52, 7.21, 16 reps
    LaMarr Woodley - 6014, 266, 4.74, 1.65, N/A , 29 reps
    Quentin Moses - 6052, 261, 4.75, 1.59, 7.38, 17 reps
    Charles Johnson - 6022, 275, 4.75, 1.58, 7.50, 33 reps
    Ray McDonald - 6033, 276, 4.88, 1.62, 7.41, never lifted
    Victor Abiamiri - 6042, 267, 4.80, 1.56, N/A, 25 reps
    Tim Crowder - 6035, 272, 4.69, 1.59, 7.28, 32 reps
    Baraka Atkins - 6044, 271, 4.69, 1.56, 7.02, 22 reps
    Dan Bazuin - 6027, 266, 4.77, 1.59, 7.09, 25 reps


    Very picky I know, but I did give them two chances (combine/campus) to get into my range. Not an exact science for sure, but it did separate the better prospects and shine some light on others. Of course, Adams and Atkins can definitely get stronger, but the others were simply lacking in one form or another. If we could get Jay Moore or Baraka Atkins in say the 4th or 5th round, that would be a steal IMO.


    Ok, my work is finished. :)
  2. tomson75

    tomson75 Brain Dead Shill

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    Give me Robison in the fourth!
  3. CowboyFan74

    CowboyFan74 Cowboys Analyst

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    What did you mean by soaking wet next to Jarvis Moss?:confused:
  4. ENGCowboy

    ENGCowboy New Member

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    Nice good work you must be bored.

    I like the reasoning on what we need and Atkins/Rbinson sounds like a great pick, with a year to learn the defense

    But only if WP is definately moving Carp inside.
  5. Clove

    Clove Shrinkage

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    Good work.
    The only thing I will say about this logic is playmaking ability exemption. If the guy misses out on a couple of measurables, but he is a flat out play-maker, he makes my list based on just getting the job done. (period ;))
  6. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    Measurables? How about performance playing a role?
  7. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    Do you mean overall production...like stats?

    Hard to come up with a standard for individual production.
  8. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    you mean like how a guy actually performs in football games rather than in the underwear Olympics?
  9. dargonking999

    dargonking999 DKRandom

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    IMO, you cna jude a players performance in College, to what he will do in the NFL. There are just way to man varaibles that affect it. I like silverstars anaylsis, as it focuses, on there size, speed, and strengh, the only things that wont decline from College ==> NFL
  10. ThreeSportStar80

    ThreeSportStar80 Benched

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    I'm bored just by reading your reasons for the rankings...*yawns*
  11. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    These workouts give team a bit more info for the draft but in the end you can't erase 3 or 4 years of play on 1 day of workouts. There are some players on the Losers list who are very good players who I think have a chance to have very good careers and while the workout session may hurt them a bit in the draft it really has little to do with playing the games.
  12. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    Jarvis weighed 250 at the combine and then added 8 pounds for his Pro Day. So, he's not a natural 260lb player (yet) and that's why I didn't give him the extra 2lbs to fit in my range. I gave it to Adams and Robison though, who weighed in at 258 and 259 at the combine....but didn't like doing it. :cool:
  13. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    Funny how those underwear Olympics, seem awfully important to NFL Owners, GM's, HC's and scouts.

    You didn't answer my question...so here's more. :)


    How do you grade performance in games?

    What do you measure it by....tackles, sacks, tfl's, ff, fr, pbu's?

    What is the lowest standard your willing to accept from a SSLB?
  14. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    I would say scouts look at how quick a guy is off the ball, how quickly he reads and reacts during a play. There are a lot of intangibles that you can look at without resorting to just stats. I have heard more and more scouts say they get more out of the personal interviews with players than things like the 3 cone shuttle or even the 40. These workouts are drafting tools but do not replace the work a player has done on the field.
  15. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    Agreed, but you can erase a lot with a major injury or even a history of nagging injuries. Teams aren't going to be impressed by any player, who can't stay on the field and take the pounding that comes with the job.

    Workouts are very important when grading a player and rightfully so.
  16. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    True there are things that can hurt your draft status and as I said the workouts are a tool to gather more info but only a fool would watch the workouts and throw away kids entire career over something like the bench press or a 3 cone drill. Those are drills but they don't give anyone the whole picture of that player. As for player who are constantly out with nagging injuries that can hurt a player then again a guy like Peterson is still going to be around the top 5 regardless of his injuries because they know he has the talent to play this game at a high level. I do agree workouts are important but they are far from a tell all about that player which is why scouts spend so much time during the season at the practice and at the games and a 1 day workout is not going to change their views that much.
  17. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    Oh, come on!

    Peterson is a consensus top 5 pick, because of his play and his impressive workout numbers. If he had run a slow forty time, he would not be a top 5 pick and Lynch would be nipping at his heels right now. Ted Ginn jr. is another example of what can happen if you don't workout. He's been slipping down draft boards ever since he got injured. He used to be top 10 pick, now he's somewhere in the 20-25 range.

    It matters...
  18. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    I have heard simular statements from other personel guys in the NFL:

    The question that has been raised about the Combine, as it has evolved, is how significant a scouting tool it has become for teams.
    "I always tell players that 90 percent of their evaluation is based on what they did from August through January when they played," Steelers director of football operations Kevin Colbert said. "Now, we get at the Combine and we've got to find out what kind of people they are, how healthy they are, and then, the workout is just icing on the cake."
    The workout aspect of the Combine has become a central component of it, as prospects are measured against one another (and NFL standards) in areas such as speed, strength and agility.
    There is, however, still considerable debate over how fast running the 40-yard dash or how many times lifting 225 pounds is telling of what kind of player a prospect will be in the NFL.
    "If a good player works out good, great," said Colbert, who will be at the Combine with new Steelers coach Mike Tomlin. "If a good player doesn't work out, great. It doesn't change your opinion that that guy's still a good player. If an average player works out great, then you'll make a mistake by running that player up the (draft) board based on that workout."


    Work outs are tools but they are not the biggest factor in teams selecting players. Sorry there are no 3 cones on a football field during a game and no one runs the 40 on game day, these are tools to get more info on a player but what you do as a player is what teams will go by more than anything else
  19. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    I'm not saying performance on the college field is a waste of time in the NFL....that's downright ridiculous. Players are invited to the combine, based on what they did on the field to begin with. However, if a player refuses to work out and stands on his college play alone for whatever reason...there's gonna be major consequences.
  20. Chocolate Lab

    Chocolate Lab Run-loving Dino

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    Nice post... But I would take Jarvis Moss in a heartbeat. He might only be 255 or so, but that's already as big as Carpenter, and Moss has a lot taller and longer frame to add more weight. Plus, he has what I think is that innate ability to get to the QB off the edge.

    My only concerns with him would be character and work ethic related. But I don't doubt he'd be an excellent complement to Ware on the field.

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