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Grading the DE/OLB tweeners... I'm bored

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by Silverstar, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    Lookit -- I'm not a scout and don't pretend to be one -- but any system that ranks a flat out stud like Gaines Adams who is a constantly disruptive defender as a "loser" is just plain wrong. You can't tell me that owners, gms, hc, and scouts are downgrading him because he didn't hit 25 reps.
  2. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    Adams can get stronger no doubt about that...I even said as much. I just made my standard for the SOLB position and wanted to stick by it. I said it wasn't an exact science and any one of those players, could turn out to be better than Adams. Great college play doesn't always translate to the NFL.....and don't we all know it. :rolleyes:
  3. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    I'd be willing to bet that great college play translates to the NFL more than does a great workout.
  4. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    Nice work Silverstar...
  5. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Benched

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    I agree w/ you, all draft picks are going to have to spend a couple of years lifting in an NFL strength and conditioning program
  6. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Benched

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    I think being a good athlete and football player are equally important
  7. jobberone

    jobberone Orangutans make great guitarists Staff Member

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    I'd put G Adams performance and abilities on a par with Michael Dean Perry. Adams has better numbers but on field they are close.

    I don't see how you can rate Adams below any DL in the draft based purely on numbers.

    BTW, Adams was the strongest player at Clemson this year and benched 490. I don't know why he only did 21 reps but it isn't because he's not strong.
  8. Rockytop6

    Rockytop6 Well-Known Member

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    Good work even if it leaves unanswered questions. Any formula will. Questions like:

    Heart?
    Instinct?
    Intellect?
    Functional Strength?
    Intangibles?

    Bob Lilly, Mr. Cowboy, did not have great weight room strength. I read an article many years ago about him that said however, he had excellent functional strength. Don't ask me to explain it.
  9. Biggems

    Biggems White and Nerdy

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    Should go no later than the 3rd, might make it into the 2nd
  10. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    I wouldn't take Moss.

    I don't view him as someone that is going to be able to hold-up vs. the run. He's too lean.

    If we didn't have Ware I could seem him for the WOLB position.

    And I'm not big on his character either.

    I think Silver came up with some better choices.
  11. TheHustler

    TheHustler Active Member

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    the weight room doesn't necessarily work muscles you use in everyday life. i can bench press more than my brother can, but for all intents and purposes, he's stronger than i am.
  12. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    I guess I won't ask you to explain it but there is a famous story about him lifting the end of a VW Bug off of the ground. Maybe someone said that he didn't have great weight room strength because they don't have VW Bugs in a weight room.
  13. tomson75

    tomson75 Brain Dead Shill

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    Well, while I think he has 2nd round talent, you'd be the first person I've heard of projecting him as such. His workouts may have bumped him to the third round, and I would still take him there, but the second is a bit of a reach. IMO. Robison is great though...he's got the talent, production, and the athleticism to boot.
  14. VACowboy

    VACowboy Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    Having seen a bunch of ACC football, I thing Baraka Atkins is going to be a steal. I'd love to see him selected in the third or so.
  15. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    I like Atkins too.

    I'm not big on blowing another 1st round draft pick on an OLB. God almighty you choose another OLB with the first round draft pick and you create some real personnel issues with too many 1st round picks at OLB and not enough playing time.

    Take a guy in anytime after round 2 and let him play situationally this year-- improve upon his weaknesses and if Ellis hangs'em up after '07 you have someone to step forward PROVIDED Carpenter doesn't become a fixture at the position-- which is distinctly possible.

    In rounds 1 & 2 get us a CB and a WR (I don't care which order) and then start looking for a "tweener", a guard/center, a developmental QB, a TE, a NT, an ILB and maybe a FB.
  16. big dog cowboy

    big dog cowboy THE BIG DOG Staff Member

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    :bow:
  17. ENGCowboy

    ENGCowboy New Member

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    I think Silverstar has chosen some good criteria without being an NFL scout has come up with a few players for a specific position on the Dallas Cowboys this is what Ireland talks about with his horizontal board. Some players better fit the scheme than others. I doubt SS thinks that Adams is a worse DL prospect than any of the others more that he just wont fit into the team as well
  18. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    Right. Those are vital to a players success. Just like the scheme they're getting drafted into plays a big part.

    I remember reading an article in the early 1990's about Jimmy Johnson and how he looked at prospects. He said many things, but one of them that stuck with me was about contact.

    Johnson said that contact is a huge part of the game and that you had better get players that not only don't mind the contact... but like it. His theory was that these guys are going to be having lots of contact nearly every day. Some guys simply don't really like the contact, and some do. He talked about one DL prospect who his (the player) college position coach said was really talented, but for some reason kind of shied away from real contact... tried to avoid the really big hits. He was a highly touted prospect, but Jimmy took him off of our draft board. Sure enough, the guy didn't pan out even though he was a high second round pick.

    Jimmy would draft guys who relished the hitting. Who loved the contact. Johnson said that getting guys who liked the contact helped insure that they liked playing football and didn't mind mixing it up day after day.

    I thought that was interesting at the time and I've always remembered it.

    I think finding guys who like to play the game, who like the contact and physical nature of the sport is vital in finding players. Guys who put their heart and soul into the game and like to play and practice. Not guys who see the NFL as a way to get a big paycheck... but rather a chance to make a living doing something they love.

    That, along with the things like football intelligence, instincts, etc. that you mentioned, really plays into how well a prospect turns out, IMO.

    Of course, physical talent plays into it as well. However, if you have one guy a tad more talented but the other has the instincts, heart, smarts, etc., then I think you go with the slightly less talented guy with all the intangibles.

    A good example of this would be Lavar Arrington and Brian Urlacher. Lavar had a slightly better 40 time than Brian, and his testing was overall a tad better (although both were really good). However, the slightly better 40 time of Arrington was more than negated by the fact that he will take more false steps and longer to diagnose a play than Urlacher. While Lavar might have a love for the game... Brian undeniably has a true passion for the sport and I think that shows in the way they play the game.

    Several years since both were taken in the first round later, and Brian is everyone's all pro and Lavar is a talented guy who can't seem to play very well and continues to not play within the defensive schemes.

    Anyway, that is simply one example. There are many. Phisical traits do mean something, but they clearly only tell half of the story. They say you can't teach speed... well you can't teach a guy to like contact or love the game either. You can't teach them to anticipate a play or have fun in practice.

    There's just so much that goes into finding a good player. Sometimes I think a dartboard is the way to go.
  19. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    So, why don't we go with the best of both worlds (underwear olympics and college play) -- Anthony Spencer!!!
  20. Silverstar

    Silverstar Active Member

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    I'm ok with that, just not in the 1st round! :D

    That's why I like the idea of drafting a Baraka Atkins or a Jay Moore on the second day, because I think they will still be on the board. Adams and Spencer are fine prospects, but will they able to transition to the 3-4 SOLB position any better than Atkins or Moore?

    I'd have to say, the learning curve is about equal for any DE who has never played standing up.

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