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Hope is not a strategy

Discussion in 'Jerry/Garrett/Rant Zone' started by BAT, Aug 29, 2014.

  1. Sinister

    Sinister Active Member

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    I said that your argument was fallacious. Do you understand the word fallacious. Let me help you out:

    fallacious - based on a mistaken belief.

    In my opinion it is.

    I have no problem with Escobar (who's using sophistry now). My problem is that they are not addressing the defense like they should.

    We do disagree, but that doesn't mean that I somehow hate the players or the organization, but I believe that turning an uncritical eye on the situation is a mistake that happens all too often on this message board (they created an entire sub-index because they could not deal with it). I'm not complaining, I just think it is funny.

    This front office has for too long overvalued the talent on this defensive line. The front office strategy is poor (in my opinion, obviously). You don't see that, that is OK.
    BAT likes this.
  2. windward

    windward NFL Historian

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    They did. It's not an all or nothing affair IMO.
  3. stasheroo

    stasheroo Well-Known Member

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    Very true.
  4. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    You are boring me with your semantics. There are specific fallacies in formal logic. You are bringing in an adjective that is derived from the noun and cherry pick a definition. Fallacies are used to demonstrate something is incorrect.

    I can be critical. When I do it is in the form of specific examples. That is the issue. When it gets down to the moves they have actually made in terms of the DL you don't want to talk about the specifics. We get what boils down to emotional vomit. This is poor. He is a jag. I don't like this. blah blah blah

    We did sign several significant pieces. We did draft and spend considerable assets on the position. The best you can do is talk about injuries which is besides the point and then parrot these mindless generalizations.

    At least this thread is now where it belongs. Adieu.
  5. Sinister

    Sinister Active Member

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    Honestly, I'm not trying to upset you. I think you're being oversensitive.

    There are specific fallacies in formal logic, but I thought we were discussing a football team. Silly me.

    I have given several specific examples, for example:
    • Lawrence is already hurt to top it off he was already an undersized Defensive End who the Cowboys traded up for.
    • McClain (career sack total 1)
    • Melton (hasn't played a down in over a year).
    I don't agree that any of the examples are 'emotional vomit' but facts about who the players are.

    Unfortunately, injuries are not beside the point they are part of the game and it is something a good GM will watch out for. Of course some injuries are beyond the pale. Some are catastrophic and can cripple a football team if they occur at the wrong time. However, doesn't it strike you as odd that most of the Cowboys crippling injuries for the past two years are occurring on the defensive side of the ball. Maybe you prefer not to question the depth, but I prefer think about the consequences of over-drafting one side of the team.

    I don't disagree with the idea that the Cowboys drafted and signed defensive players. I disagree that those defensive players that were drafted/signed are a 'considerable asset'. In my opinion they are a band-aid to cover for the disastrous results of the moves made by the front office in the years past.

    Even though I agree that Hope in not a Strategy, I sure as hell hope that this defensive line proves me wrong. I hope that Bishop/Coleman are co-rookies of the year. I hope we smash the 49ers in that first game.

    I hope...
    BAT and Dodger12 like this.
  6. dexternjack

    dexternjack World Traveler Zone Supporter

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    I am more concerned making it through the first half of the schedule within striking distance of a division title. We are supposed to work injured players back in slowly, will be getting some back after four weeks, etc, etc. These players will not come in 100% ready to go, will still need adjusting(some more than others) which will add a couple to a few games.

    So, we are looking at week 6 at the earliest, more like week 7, to see if any dividends pay off. By that time, this team may have dug a hole too deep to climb out of.....which is what I fear considering the first half is the hardest part(on paper).

    Luckily, we are not in the AFC West, so there is that. If this team can tread water and be around .500 starting week 7 or so, I like our chances if everyone stays relatively healthy, especially on the defensive side.
    DallasEast and Idgit like this.
  7. Zman5

    Zman5 Well-Known Member

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    Did you look at the 2012 draft? We spent the first 5 picks (1,2,3, and two 4th rounds) on defense and look where we are. Claiborn barely starts, Crawford is still an unknown, and Wilber still doesn't have a set position and Matt Johnson has been released. Think about that. We spent the top 5 picks on defense and we haven't hit on one from that draft.

    In fact, we haven't hit on any defensive players since 2010 draft(Sean Lee) and even Lee is a question mark due to his injury history. That's 5 drafts we blown and it's not like we haven't used top picks to do so.
  8. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    Know what else is not a strategy? Hopelessness.

    Look...I get not liking the actual current strategy. Can we please not mischaracterize it intentionally or pretend it does not exist?
  9. windward

    windward NFL Historian

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    The 2012 draft hasn't been good, yes. But the 2010, 2011 and 2013 drafts were better.
  10. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    In 2012 we added Claiborne, Wilber, and Crawford, all of whom might be starting for us against SF. In addition to Leary, Beasley, and Dunbar who are all starters and key role players from that same college class. People need a better grip on what a rookie class nets most NFL teams.
    MichaelWinicki likes this.
  11. Zman5

    Zman5 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't matter if they are starting (Claiborne, Wilber, and Crawford) for us. They are all still unproven or average players at best. From your top 5 picks, you want to at least find someone who is a better than an average player.
  12. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    'Unproven' and 'average' aren't the same thing. And that applies to all six, each of whom has a legitimate chance to be an impact player this season.
    MichaelWinicki likes this.
  13. Zman5

    Zman5 Well-Known Member

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    Not on the defensive side. And I mention that because our team is where we are due to defense being so bad. Only player I would consider an impact player (defensive) from those draft is Sean Lee and even he is somewhat of a question mark due to injuries.
  14. Zman5

    Zman5 Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying 'unproven' and 'average' are same things. I'm saying the players we drafted with our top 5 picks in 2012 are either unproven (Crawford) or average (Claiborn, Wilber) at best. And I'm not even going to mention Matt Johnson.
  15. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    I don't agree that any of those players necessarily top out at average for us. But it doesn't really matter...comparing that class to the 2009 class, there's an obvious difference there. We don't need to pretend there's not just to make ourselves feel worse about everything.
  16. Zman5

    Zman5 Well-Known Member

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    They may not top out at average but so far that's what they have been.

    You can't compare 2009 with 2012 class due to the fact we didn't even have 1st and 2nd round picks from 2009. Our first 3 picks from the 2009 draft was 69th, 75th, and 101st pick overall. Our first three picks from 2012 draft was 6th, 45th, and 81st. That's a huge difference.
  17. windward

    windward NFL Historian

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    That's a good point to consider. I liked the 2012 draft when it happened, especially the pickups of Crawford and Wilber. In fact I think a more accurate statement would be that it hasn't lived up to its potential. Yet. This is year 3 and a pivotal one for all 3. It could very well turn out fantastic for us.The UDFA haul was very impressive.
    Idgit likes this.
  18. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    Yep. But what's important was the infusion of talent each year. We haven't made the same mistakes we made in 2009 again, and we're less likely to have a similarly big hole in the roster as a result.
  19. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    It definitely has not lived up to its potential.
  20. Zman5

    Zman5 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe on offense but as I mentioned in my posts, our defense is bad because we haven't drafted well on that side past few years There is no infusion of talent on defense past few years. Name one impact player drafted past few years on defense besides Sean Lee.

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