1. Welcome to CowboysZone!  Join us!  Come on!  You know you want to!

How Long Do We Have ??

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by irvin88, Sep 29, 2007.

  1. irvin88

    irvin88 Active Member

    1,668 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?

    This is the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. The sad thing about it, you can see it coming.

    I have always heard about this democracy countdown. It is interesting to see it in print. May God help us, not that we deserve it.


    How Long Do We Have?
    About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:


    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."

    " A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."

    "From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

    The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years." "During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
    1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
    2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
    3. from courage to liberty;
    4. from liberty to abundance;
    5. from abundance to complacency;
    6. from complacency to apathy;
    7. from apathy to dependence;
    8. from dependence back into bondage"

    Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

    Number of States won by:
    Gore: 19
    Bush: 29

    Square miles of land won by:
    Gore: 580,000
    Bush: 2,427,000


    Population of counties won by:
    Gore: 127 million
    Bush: 143 million


    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
    Gore: 13.2
    Bush: 2.1

    Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country.

    Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in
    government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."


    Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

    If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then we can say good-bye to the USA as we know it in fewer than five years.

    Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

    Thanks for reading.
  2. vta

    vta The Proletariat

    8,746 Messages
    5 Likes Received
    Very interesting read... It's too bad it was at the last slanted toward the not-as-pressing issue as illegal immigration.

    Not that I don't believe that illegal immigration is a problem, but the bigger problem is, and here he is correct, we are at complacency and apathy. And with the notion that we should depend on government for such things as health care, we're on our way to dependance. We better check ourselves before we start getting pissed at some of the people who come here.

    I never heard of the guy, (Tyler), and I don't know who authored this piece, but the fact that it hits the right buttons with a certain measure of truth, with the not so hidden hints of partisan favoritism, makes me wonder if it's really just a form of creative writing and an attempt at subconcious direction.

    He cleverly pushes the social/economic, partisan divide buttons without ever actually using the words Democrat or Republican, and craftily designates the poorest and less savory citizens as the polar opposite of who will vote Republican. He may have a point, I don't know the stats..., but I get the subtext.
  3. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

    41,439 Messages
    1,457 Likes Received
    Nothing suprising there. People in the cities depend on the government every day for what they need as regards basic services. People in small towns and on ranches and farms do not. Add the fear of crime and they feel the need for more government (even the ones that hate the cops). And those that need government help want more and will vote for those that promise more. A truly vicious cycle. Those that fear want more control- government IS control.
  4. arglebargle

    arglebargle Well-Known Member

    5,005 Messages
    126 Likes Received
    Bzzzt. I am pretty sure Bush won the suburbs only in the last election, trailing in rural, urban, and small town voting, as well as being the first sitting president to ever lose the military vote.

    And apparantly only welfare aimed at helping the poor is bad, as opposed to the generous 'corporate welfare' that flows from Washington unabated.

    Interesting take on the article vta, your spin detection is very active.
  5. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

    19,020 Messages
    960 Likes Received
    good lord please check sources......

    this has been a known fraud article since 2001.....
  6. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

    19,020 Messages
    960 Likes Received
    Home --> Politics --> Quotes --> The Fall of the Athenian Republic

    The Fall of the Athenian Republic

    Claim: Law professor demonstrates that the results of the 2000 presidential election correspond to an 18th century historian's prediction of conditions accompanying the downfall of democracy.

    Status: Multiple — see below.


    At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    From Bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage."

    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent Presidential election:

    Population of counties won by:
    Gore = 127 million
    Bush = 143 million

    Square miles of land won by:
    Gore = 580,000
    Bush = 2,2427,000

    States won by:
    Gore = 19
    Bush = 29

    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
    Gore = 13.2
    Bush = 2.1

    Professor Olson adds:

    "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare . . ."

    Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and "complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

    Origins: The piece quoted above has been circulating on the Internet since shortly after the November 2000 presidential election. We haven't examined it ourselves yet, but Mike Powell of Kennewick, Washington, was kind enough to send us his analysis, which we're happy to include
    here.

    1. The population of the counties and square miles of area won by each Bush and Gore appear to be accurate. They are consistent with the election-result map published by USA Today on 20 November 2000.

    2. The number of states won by each candidate is wrong, but the numbers given (29 and 19) imply this piece was written before the results of the Florida and New Mexico vote-counts were determined. The final tallies were 30 states for Bush and 20 for Gore.

    3. The quote from "Alexander Tyler" is very likely fictitious. His name was actually "Lord Woodhouselee, Alexander Fraser Tytler," and he was a Scottish historian/professor who wrote several books in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

    However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler. This quote has also been cited as being from Tytler's Universal History or from his Elements of General History, Ancient and Modern, books that do exist. These books seem the most likely source of the quote, as they contain extensive discussions of the political systems in historic civilizations, including Athens. Universal History was published after, and based upon, Elements of General History, which was a collection of Professor Tytler's lecture notes.

    Tytler's book, Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century, is available for viewing and searching on-line. The complete text was searched for each of the following phrases:

    * Athenian Republic
    * democracy
    * generous gifts
    * public treasury
    * loose fiscal
    * fiscal
    * bondage
    * 200 years
    * two hundred years
    * spiritual faith

    In no case was text identified that was remotely similar in words or intent to the alleged Tytler quote.

    4. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter. And, as Fayette Citizen editor Dave Hamrick wrote back in January 2001:
    I really enjoyed one recent message that was circulated extremely widely, at least among conservatives. It gave several interesting "facts" supposedly compiled by statisticians and political scientists about the counties across the nation that voted for George Bush and the ones that voted for Al Gore in the recent election.

    Supposedly, the people in the counties for Bush had more education, more income, ad infinitum, than the counties for Gore.

    I didn't have time to check them all out, but I was curious about one item in particular... the contention that the murder rate in the Gore counties was about a billion times higher than in the Bush counties.

    This was attributed to a Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law. I never heard of such a university, but went online and found it. And Prof. Olson does exist.

    "Now I'm getting somewhere," I thought.

    But in response to my e-mail, Olson said the "research" was attributed to him erroneously. He said it came from a Sheriff Jay Printz in Montana. I e-mailed Sheriff Printz, and guess what? He didn't do the research either, and didn't remember who had e-mailed it to him.

    In other words, he got the same legend e-mailed to him and passed it on to Olson without checking it out, and when Olson passed it on, someone thought it sounded better if a law professor had done the research, and so it grew.

    Who knows where it originally came from, but it's just not true.
    5. The county-by-county murder-rate comparison presented in this piece is wrong.

    According to the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), in the year 2000 the national murder rate was about 5.5 per 100,000 residents. Homicide data by county for 1999 and 2000 can be downloaded from the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data (NAJCD), and the counties won by Gore and Bush can be identified using the county-by-county election results made available by CNN. (The NACJD provides not only the number of reported murders for each county, but also the population for each.) The average murder rate in the counties won by Gore vs. the rate in the counties won by Bush can be determined from this data.

    By calculating the murder rate for each county and then taking the averages, we find a murder rate (defined as number of murders per 100,000 residents) of about 5.2 for the "average" Gore county and 3.3 for the average Bush county. But since people, rather than counties, commit murders, a more appropriate approach is to calculate the total number of murders in the counties won by each candidate and divide that figure by the total number of residents in those counties. This more appropriate method yields the following average murder rates in counties won by each candidate:

    # Gore: 6.5
    # Bush: 4.1


    There is a distinct difference between these two numbers, but it is nowhere near as large as the quoted e-mail message states (i.e., 13.2 for Gore vs. 2.1 for Bush). Note that the average of these two figures is 5.3, which, as expected, is very close to the reported national murder rate of 5.5.

    Last updated: 4 September 2007

    The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

    Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2007
    by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
  7. Mavs Man

    Mavs Man All outta bubble gum

    4,668 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Yeah, it's been around a while.
  8. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

    41,439 Messages
    1,457 Likes Received
    But is the general thrust correct? Maybe the numbers are off, but the rest of it is pretty much true. I love how certain people desperately try and discredit things by picking at numbers when the numbers are not that important. The Murder rate is much higher in Gore counties then Bush counties- right? The number of states was wrong but that was because it was written before that was settled- but the 60% figure remained.
    Speaking of numbers, argle, since you are so sure of what you posted, do you have a link? You alreadly know you were wrong about counties, etc. Now you claim he lost the military vote. Prove that. And you do know that that was the 2000, election, where GOre was the sitting VP. Bush had not gotten into office yet. I really doubt he lost the military vote in 2004 as well. Now if you were talking about 2004, you do know he actually did better then he did in 2000. So once again your numbers need some support.
  9. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

    19,020 Messages
    960 Likes Received
    dude what are you talking about?

    what true thrust?
    It is all made up.

    The quoted passages do NOT exist, the named researchers did not perform any research.

    Not only was it all made up it never made any sense in the first place.
    The wealthiest people in this country generally live in conclaves inside or right outside of big cities, not in rural areas. They also make 99% of their money IN the cities.

    If you would like to re-write this article dealing with only factual stuff I'd be glad to debate it. At this point there is nothing to debate because it is all a bunch of lies.

    Rural areas are generally poor and receive a good deal of government assistance. Farmers are subsidized as much as any working group in this country.

    Just because it sounded good to you doesn't mean it had any merit whatsoever.
  10. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

    19,020 Messages
    960 Likes Received
    http://www.bea.gov/bea/regional/reis/default.cfm?catable=CA1-3&section=2

    that site offers stats through 2005.

    What it will show is that the poorest per capita states are almost all Repub states.

    The richest region is the 'evil liberal' Northeast... and the poorest region is the 'god-fearing Repub' Southeast.

    Amazingly many poor people vote Repub. The 'thrust" of the article is full of manure in that people vote what they believe not what delivers them the most goods.
  11. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

    41,439 Messages
    1,457 Likes Received
    well, Jterrrel, I would say that there are poorer people in the inner city. Maybe a lot of the poorer people away from the cities are just smarter and therefore vote more conservatively.
    As regards the PRIMARY thrust of the article, as usual you do not want to debate THAT.
  12. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed Zone Supporter

    28,105 Messages
    1,156 Likes Received
    so what you're saying is that if the facts of your article are eventually shown to be wrong and biased and well...made up - you go for some generalized "thrust" of the article vs. just saying "damn"?

    who would want to debate things on your terms and your terms only? you're shown to be giving false info so you find some leaf to hide under and go "well the idea is sound!!!" w/no evidence to back that up.
  13. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

    19,020 Messages
    960 Likes Received
    We can debate whatever point you'd like but you will need a to make a point for me to debate it.

    Again, let's look at your intelligence claim. I assume you were kidding because I am sure you were aware that the highest scoring IQ states vote Democratic lead again by the Northeast.

    So your attempted point is not only corny it's false.

    This site below debunks BOTH of your theories in one fell swoop.

    Democrats in fact are smarter and richer.
    http://sq.4mg.com/stateIQ-income.htm
  14. ConcordCowboy

    ConcordCowboy Mr. Buckeye

    12,747 Messages
    2 Likes Received
    Yes but was the general thrust correct?

    Good lord.

    :rolleyes:
  15. Mavs Man

    Mavs Man All outta bubble gum

    4,668 Messages
    0 Likes Received
  16. Eric_Boyer

    Eric_Boyer Well-Known Member

    4,350 Messages
    169 Likes Received
    I think we hit this in 1992. This was the year that 50% of us began paying over 96% of all income taxes and it will be nearly impossible to roll this back.
  17. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

    19,020 Messages
    960 Likes Received
    The wealthiest 1% pays 34% of all taxes but they own 50% of all possessions/land et al.

    Yet they amazingly remain in that wealthiest 1% and seldom fail to make money.

    The wealthiest people in this country make money off the poorest people and money given to the poor people always works it way back up the stack to the rich.

    If you want money in the economy hand it to the poor not to the rich.

    BTW, the two richest Americans are giving away money as fast as they possibly can and making more. Bill gates and Warren Buffet are notoriously generous and amazingly aren't crying about paying taxes... I wonder why.

    Buffet files his first tax return at 13 years old and it hasn't prevented him from a massing a veritable fortune. And unlike GW Bush he favors inheritance taxes like Abraham Lincoln.
  18. arglebargle

    arglebargle Well-Known Member

    5,005 Messages
    126 Likes Received

    I am going to have retract my claims. I did indeed see those numbers quoted, but finding any hard data either way now is difficult. I had been talking the 2004 elections. Best stats I have found so far says Bush lost ground in rural areas, lost lots of ground in small cities, made modest gains in the suburbs and made huge gains in the cities. Actual gains that the writers say are unsupportable statistically. But that's a different story.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00165.htm
  19. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

    19,020 Messages
    960 Likes Received
    This may help your point some:

    http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

    He got 2% more of the african-american vote and 9% more of the latino vote than he did in 2000.
  20. irvin88

    irvin88 Active Member

    1,668 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Only reason democrats win NY is because of NYC and the high minority vote. Republicans rule upstate and Buffalo region..

Share This Page