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Is Passing This Bill the Right Thing To Do?

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by ABQCOWBOY, Jan 28, 2009.


    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    House Republicans Push Counter-Proposal on Stimulus

    Far from rolling over, House Republican leaders are trying to win concessions from President Obama over the massive economic stimulus package and have proffered a bill of their own to put on the negotiating table.

    The counter-package, which is separate from a substitute amendment already proposed by House Republicans, would shift focus entirely from spending to tax relief. Though a full House vote on the Democratic package is expected in a matter of hours and President Obama said he's confident it will pass, GOP lawmakers are hoping their proposal at least influences the final product.

    In a brief session with reporters Wednesday, Republicans panned the $825 billion proposal under consideration as a "non-stimulus" bill chock full of gift-wrapped spending items.

    "People are recognizing very quickly that's it's not one, stimulative, and two, it's full of all sorts of things that are sort of favorite political projects of the Democrat majority," said Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., chairman of the Republican Study Committee.

    "If government spending was going to get us out of this mess, we'd have been out a long time ago, because that's all we've been doing," said Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio. "This is not going to work. That's why we've got a bill we think will work."

    Their bill, called the Economic Recovery and Middle-Class Tax Relief Act of 2009, promises a host of tax-cutting measures. It includes a 5 percent "across the board" income tax cut; an increase in the child tax credit from $1,000 to $5,000; a freeze on capital gains and dividends tax rates at 15 percent; and a number of other measures targeted toward businesses.

    The Republicans authoring the alternative bill did not have an estimate for the cost of their counter-proposal, but Price said so far the bill has 65 co-sponsors.

    Republicans said they're not just trying to make a political point, but put forward a proposal that reflects the wishes of their constituents.

    "Bipartisan does not mean that either side should be giving up what their principles are," said Rep. Scott Garrett, R-N.J.

    The Democratic bill due for a House vote Wednesday includes about $550 billion in spending and about $275 billion in tax cuts.

    Rep. Eric Cantor, R-Va., and Rep. David Camp, R-Mich., have also proposed a substitute amendment to the Democratic bill that would strip almost all of the existing language and add income tax rate deductions, alternative minimum tax relief, small business deductions and other measures.

    Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., said Wednesday that Republicans are "finding their voice" on the debate and "getting in the fight."

    He and House Minority Leader John Boehner dismissed the Democratic proposal as a partisan grab bag driven by "old liberal spending priorities."

    "The Democratic bill won't stimulate anything but more government and more debt," Boehner said. "Americans need this bill to work."

    Republicans won a few concessions, as Democrats deleted $20 million meant to re-sod the National Mall in D.C., and stripped about $200 million for contraceptive services. But that's not enough say Republicans, who said they felt Obama had reached out to them in meetings a day earlier on Capitol Hill and were hopeful the new president would at least incorporate some of their ideas. Obama said Tuesday that lawmakers should put politics aside and pass a stimulus for the sake of the American economy.

    FOX News' Mosheh Oinounou contributed to this report

    Well, this is what was voted in. We're screwed. This is going to pass no matter what the American people think. I asked this question yesterday and I ask it again. Is there anybody on this board who believes passing this bill is a good idea?
  2. Dallas

    Dallas Old bulletproof tiger

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    No its not a good idea. I think most sane posters understand the politics involved and the lack of anything this stimulus package will give the US citizen.

    Absolutely nothing.

    My 8 yr old will be there at the end holding the check. :(
  3. Route 66

    Route 66 Active Member

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    The Bill you are speaking of is the Democratic Bill that will be voted in or are you referring to the Republican counter-package?
  4. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    At this point no. Even if you believe that we need a stimulus package the current one is load with too much pork and side projects by the dems.

    However just because they vote on things right now does not mean this is the final bill that will get passed.

    I have a feeling some more things will be removed from this (one thing already has) before all is said and done but sadly there will still be pork in it.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Current Bill being voted on.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    I hope your last is true. Unfortunatly, all too often, the moneys appropriated for certain things never even get to the designated objectives. You may get 40 Billion carved out for Bridge improvements but, once those dollars get down to the level at which they can be spent, they are used to pay for some other project. It happens a lot and I'd expect it will happen a great deal on this one to.

    I just think this is about the worst case scenario being played out but it's hard to believe that these guys would be that stupid.
  7. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    How come there is no option in the poll for "Hell No"?

    If you want to stimulate the economy and are hell bent on spending 800B just give it to the people. The American society has proven it doesn't like to save much so give it to the people. Heck it was our money to start with. And while I am not for giving money to those who didn't pay taxes, even if you did this for every person in the country each person would receive a total of approx. 2631 dollars. A family of four would get 10526.00. While some of that would be spent on paying bills and some would be spent illegally the majority of that would put some big time cash right into the economy.

    But then again, as Brain was saying, there has to be pork projects and this wouldn't accomplish that.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    I was so pissed off while writting it that it was all I could do to type Yes - No.
  9. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    As is no, I think hearing should be held and problems looked at and funded accordingly if need be and that money should go for specific things not handing out money to be spent however the receipt likes.
  10. JBond

    JBond Well-Known Member

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    It took $150,000,000,000 in pork/bribes to get the last one through. This one will be no different.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
  11. dbair1967

    dbair1967 Arch Defender

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    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    House Democrats Rally Ahead of Vote on Stimulus Package

    President's plan to revive the economy is all but certain to clear its first hurdle when the House of Representatives votes Wednesday on an $819 billion stimulus package.


    Wednesday, January 28, 2009

    Democratic congressional leaders practically declared victory Wednesday afternoon, as the House of Representatives prepared to vote on the $819 billion economic stimulus package.

    The massive recovery package has stirred consternation among Republicans who say their ideas are not being adequately considered. But Democrats have a comfortable majority in the House and stressed that fact in a talk with reporters.

    "If there is somebody who is disgruntled, so be it. But we will have an overwhelming vote," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said. She and more than a half-dozen other Democrats touted the bill and chided Republicans for pushing what they called the kind of failed policies that led to the economic crisis.

    "The Republicans are talking about process. I think when you lose the argument on substance, on policy, what do you do? You talk about process and you talk about personality," she said.

    Meanwhile, House Republican leaders were standing firm in their opposition to the stimulus plan. Just ahead of the House vote, they insisted that their own plan, focusing on tax relief, would create twice as many new jobs -- 6.2 million -- as the plan Obama is pushing, while costing about half as much.

    House Minority Leader John Boehner said Republicans remain "disappointed" in the stimulus plan coming to a vote. He says it includes a "lot of wasteful spending that won't create jobs."

    He says the GOP plan for "fast-acting tax relief" would "create jobs and preserve jobs in America."

    As the House debated a slew of amendments on the floor Wednesday, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs downplayed the disagreements over the bill.

    "Tonight starts the beginning of what we know is going to be a long process," Gibbs said, adding that the White House hopes the bill can be signed by mid-February. "Tonight will be a very important first step."

    The House measure had been estimated to cost $825 billion, but the Congressional Budget Office updated the bill's price tag to $816 billion after accountants recalculated the cost. That total rose by $3 billion when the House approved on a voice vote a Democratic amendment for mass transit.

    Earlier Wednesday, President Obama tried to assure skeptics who say the package is too costly and contains too many measures that will not stimulate job growth.

    He called for "bold and swift" action and said that the stimulus package before Congress will make critical investments in the private sector as well as the national infrastructure.

    "We will invest in what works," Obama said, pledging to release information about how the money is spent.

    In an earlier appearance, Obama said he's confident the bill will pass but preferred not to speculate on how much Republican support he will get when the roll is called. Obama had said earlier that Republican support would back up his argument that a new style of bipartisan politics is needed in Washington.

    Asked whether he was confident of getting Republican support, he replied only: "I'm confident we're going to get it passed."

    His program is expansive -- and expensive. Republican support remained in doubt in the hours leading up to the vote.

    Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell also expressed skepticism about the bill pushed by House Democrats.

    Senate committees were working on a separate version of the measure that enjoyed only slightly more support from Republicans. Congressional leaders have promised Obama they would send him the measure, which could be the single largest bill ever to go through Congress, by mid-February.

    The president's first days in office have been dominated by his efforts to drum up bipartisan support for the sweeping plan to help pull the country out of the year-old recession that he inherited from President Bush. The increasingly troublesome economy -- and the federal government's response to it -- is the first major test of Obama's presidency. How he handles the volatile situation, and the effect of his stimulus package on the economy, could set the tone for his first year in office, if not his entire term.

    He is casting the measure as the first step toward turning around the moribund economy while laying the foundation for long-term objectives, like developing alternative energy sources and rebuilding the country's highways.

    The House measure includes about $550 billion in spending and roughly $275 billion in tax cuts in hopes of spurring the economy and helping those directly affected. Much of the spending would be for items such as health care, jobless benefits, food stamps and other programs that benefit victims of the downturn.

    The Associated Press contributed to this report.
  13. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Many Republican were not thrilled with the 700 billion dollar bailout as their phones were ringing off the wall by voters in their home state now we are throwing out more money and according to Pelosi this is about being disgruntled? Hey Pelosi if you have the votes then do it and shut your pie hole you can explain yourself to the voters in your district.
  14. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    It has already had three things removed from it.

    What people also need to understand that the dems were going to get this first vote and the republicans are basically getting a free vote.

    This still has to go to another group and it will be negotiated some more and chances are we will not know the final bill for another 2 weeks or so.

    I also think Obama needs to reign in that motormouth Pelosi as she is not helping him with this stuff. I think he really is trying to get a better relationship between the parties but the nipple head dems like Pelosi have been so spineless and ineffective over the years that now they got some power and want to lay a power trip out there. I have a feeling Obama will have a little word with Nancy and the like before it is said and done...kind of like how he grabbed Biden's arm and gave him one of those stop or I will beat you looks when Biden poked fun of Roberts over the oath.

    By the same token...republicans need to learn that they are no longer in power and all things are not going to their way. Good or bad they just are not going to get everything they want. I seen where they have came out with not just changes to the proposed bill but a whole new proposed bill of their own. Hate to be a pecker about it but they know that is not going to happen. They are better off working on the existing one to get the pork out cause this is not going to change to a completely different bill. And an argument can be made by opponents that they had plenty of years to get things right now, for good or bad, America has said it is the dems chance.

    Personally I don't have much faith in either so at this point I hope they just get as much pork out of it as possible and I think Obama will, as I noted before, have to have a wood shed moment with Pelosi and some other dems. Because no matter what we want, there will be a big stimilus bill passed and we will all pay for it. Let's just hope, for all of our sakes, that it helps some.
  15. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Pelosi does not work for Obama, like Obama she is freely elected by people in her district so I doubt he is going to force her to do anything. As for Republican we know we lost and I hope they try to work with this administration but they too are accountable to the people they represent and should vote as such or else they come home with their seat up for grabs as many voters will look to someone else.
  16. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Pelosi does not have to work for Obama for him to have a woodshed moment with her...whether it will work with that airhead or not is another matter.

    And yeah I get that they are responsible for their own voters, hence the reason I said this is a free vote for them.

    Another thing that bothers me about both of these "plans" we keep hearing them say that this plan will create x amount of jobs and the other side says but our plan will create x amount of jobs and so on.

    I would love to have guarantees and the names of these jobs. It is hard for me to fathom that they know the number of jobs that will be created yet I bet neither side could actually give you a specific job of a specific company in a specific area for even half of these magical x amount of jobs they tell us their plans would create. Or is that just me how they can throw these numbers out and we are just supposed to say...hey that's right.

    If either of these plans are so great you would think we would not be in the mess we are in now and it is funny how we are to believe either side and their plans when both sides are responsible in part for this mess.

    I don't know...my jaded side is coming out again.:laugh2:

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    The interesting part of this is that when the Republican Party held sway over things, like the Demorcatic Party does now, one of the very first things they did was introduce Legislations called the House Fairness Act - Contract With America. It consisted of what is outlined below.

    As Republican Members of the House of Representatives and as citizens seeking to join that body we propose not just to change its policies, but even more important, to restore the bonds of trust between the people and their elected representatives.
    That is why, in this era of official evasion and posturing, we offer instead a detailed agenda for national renewal, a written commitment with no fine print.

    This year's election offers the chance, after four decades of one-party control, to bring to the House a new majority that will transform the way Congress works. That historic change would be the end of government that is too big, too intrusive, and too easy with the public's money. It can be the beginning of a Congress that respects the values and shares the faith of the American family.

    Like Lincoln, our first Republican president, we intend to act "with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right." To restore accountability to Congress. To end its cycle of scandal and disgrace. To make us all proud again of the way free people govern themselves.

    On the first day of the 104th Congress, the new Republican majority will immediately pass the following major reforms, aimed at restoring the faith and trust of the American people in their government:

    FIRST, require all laws that apply to the rest of the country also apply equally to the Congress;
    SECOND, select a major, independent auditing firm to conduct a comprehensive audit of Congress for waste, fraud or abuse;
    THIRD, cut the number of House committees, and cut committee staff by one-third;
    FOURTH, limit the terms of all committee chairs;
    FIFTH, ban the casting of proxy votes in committee;
    SIXTH, require committee meetings to be open to the public;
    SEVENTH, require a three-fifths majority vote to pass a tax increase;
    EIGHTH, guarantee an honest accounting of our Federal Budget by implementing zero base-line budgeting.
    Thereafter, within the first 100 days of the 104th Congress, we shall bring to the House Floor the following bills, each to be given full and open debate, each to be given a clear and fair vote and each to be immediately available this day for public inspection and scrutiny.

    1. THE FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT: A balanced budget/tax limitation amendment and a legislative line-item veto to restore fiscal responsibility to an out- of-control Congress, requiring them to live under the same budget constraints as families and businesses. (Bill Text) (Description)

    2. THE TAKING BACK OUR STREETS ACT: An anti-crime package including stronger truth-in- sentencing, "good faith" exclusionary rule exemptions, effective death penalty provisions, and cuts in social spending from this summer's "crime" bill to fund prison construction and additional law enforcement to keep people secure in their neighborhoods and kids safe in their schools. (Bill Text) (Description)

    3. THE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT: Discourage illegitimacy and teen pregnancy by prohibiting welfare to minor mothers and denying increased AFDC for additional children while on welfare, cut spending for welfare programs, and enact a tough two-years-and-out provision with work requirements to promote individual responsibility. (Bill Text) (Description)

    4. THE FAMILY REINFORCEMENT ACT: Child support enforcement, tax incentives for adoption, strengthening rights of parents in their children's education, stronger child pornography laws, and an elderly dependent care tax credit to reinforce the central role of families in American society. (Bill Text) (Description)

    5. THE AMERICAN DREAM RESTORATION ACT: A S500 per child tax credit, begin repeal of the marriage tax penalty, and creation of American Dream Savings Accounts to provide middle class tax relief. (Bill Text) (Description)

    6. THE NATIONAL SECURITY RESTORATION ACT: No U.S. troops under U.N. command and restoration of the essential parts of our national security funding to strengthen our national defense and maintain our credibility around the world. (Bill Text) (Description)

    7. THE SENIOR CITIZENS FAIRNESS ACT: Raise the Social Security earnings limit which currently forces seniors out of the work force, repeal the 1993 tax hikes on Social Security benefits and provide tax incentives for private long-term care insurance to let Older Americans keep more of what they have earned over the years. (Bill Text) (Description)

    8. THE JOB CREATION AND WAGE ENHANCEMENT ACT: Small business incentives, capital gains cut and indexation, neutral cost recovery, risk assessment/cost-benefit analysis, strengthening the Regulatory Flexibility Act and unfunded mandate reform to create jobs and raise worker wages. (Bill Text) (Description)

    9. THE COMMON SENSE LEGAL REFORM ACT: "Loser pays" laws, reasonable limits on punitive damages and reform of product liability laws to stem the endless tide of litigation. (Bill Text) (Description)

    10. THE CITIZEN LEGISLATURE ACT: A first-ever vote on term limits to replace career politicians with citizen legislators. (Description)

    Further, we will instruct the House Budget Committee to report to the floor and we will work to enact additional budget savings, beyond the budget cuts specifically included in the legislation described above, to ensure that the Federal budget deficit will be less than it would have been without the enactment of these bills.

    Respecting the judgment of our fellow citizens as we seek their mandate for reform, we hereby pledge our names to this Contract with America.

    Unfortunatly, one of the first things Pelosi did was try to repeal this so that nobody but the Democrats will have a say and there will be no oversite into what they are doing. Welcome back to the bad old days IMO. I don't believe this is about the Republican Party having to accept that they are no longer in power or that the American People (we will all see if the decision was right or wrong) elected the Democrats into power. As illustrated by this poll IMO, this is about the Democratic Party doing what the AMERICAN People do not want them to do.
  18. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    When the republicans took control during the clinton era they started off with a bang and they did the right things. Sadly though they grew drunk with power and greed and screwed themselves up. The dems have been spineless for so long and have been the GOP's sluts that they are mad and feel they need to flex their muscles. Sadly the only muscles they are flexing is their mouth and sphincters.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    I am not opposed to considering many for the programs the Democratic Party wants to fund. I just don't think they should be included in something called a Stimulus package. If they have a majority, then they should be able to get the things they want funded, funded. The problem is that this Bill, should adhear to the business of Stimulating the economy and as such, be held accountable in the stricktest sense of the word for just that. The truth of the matter is that all of these outside agendas will be impossible to track and as a result, will not get done because even if the money were budgeted, it will end up going elsewhere and we will be back where we started with nothing to show for it but a 1.8 Trillion deficit.
  20. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    As I have said before I would like to have formal hearings with top economic people and if we are to spend money then we need to directly target where the money goes and how the money is to be spent.

    Having a big pile of money with every politician with their hands in it is not going to fix the problem isolating problem areas and addressing them with funds in some cases and requiring change in other areas is a better option in my view.

    I think the biggest misnomer is throwing money at problems solve everything and the fact is it does not.

    I'm not picking on Dems or giving the Republican a free pass we are all in this together but I think we should know exactly where all of this money is going and how exactly will it be used and what should be expected from it.
    Right now we are getting I hope and we don't really know that in my view is not good enough of an answer when talking 800 some odd billion dollars.

    Now is the time to back away from the table and look seriously at the problem and address it where we can, not this hurry up and hope it works

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