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Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

Discussion in 'Sports Zone' started by Doomsday101, Mar 26, 2014.

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  1. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    this is just the first. I imagine others will come. And its only impossible to do so because the NCAA demands that. the appeal is not on very good grounds hiding behind semantics and in less than a year, the NCAA will begin to lose the ability to control this.
  2. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    and what will the players do strike? College will survive with or without them this is not the same as the NFL it is different. Laws that are in effect for private school are different than state ran colleges that are exempt which is most of the Division I schools. Currently scolorships are not taxable now as employees and this is part of compensation it will become that is pretty penny out of the kids or his parents wallet. This is a can of worms that can have as many negitive impacts on the kids as positives. You want them to be emploees they can be treated as such. 4 year scholorships that some schools like Northwester offer they will likely go back to the 1 year scholorship so players can be dismissed after a single season should performace be lacking or some other kid shows he is better. Sometimes getting what you ask for is not all you thought it would be.
    Lastly some college law professors seem to disagree that the schools are on shaky ground in their appeal. Labor board happens to be made up of some left leaning folks and tend to see things from a different view point, that does not mean the courts will agree with those views
  3. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    Costs for the union would come from the members of the union no? I don't think the NFL pays DeMaurice Smith his salary to fight against him. Or does Jerry Jones pay NFLPA union dues that I don't know about?

    wut? The terms student-athlete and employee are not mutually exclusive, and they haven't been magically made mutually exclusive because the NLRB said the Northwestern student athletes were the same as employees. Now who's being obtuse?

    Are you and Dooms just those types of people who hear the word "union" and lose their minds?
  4. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    Um, because citizens are not working without the opportunity to have a say in what their compensation is... really has zero to do with this discussion though.

    Unionization has already happened. The world hasn't ended yet. And the power conferences are already the winners compared to the small conferences... at least last I checked.
  5. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    So pay is okay, as long as everyone is paid the same? I trust you are of the same opinion in your job?
  6. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    None of the top recruits will be accepting offers of one year scholarships if the NFL doesn't change it's rule to allow one and dones. Basketball players may accept those types of offers though.

    And if the top players are making what their fair market value is, I think they'll take the trade off of having to pay taxes.
  7. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    The walk on was specifically exempted in the ruling. They can't be members of unions, because they don't sign scholarship tenders and they don't have the same strict requirements of scholarship athletes.
  8. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    Left-leaning? You couldn't tell me the name of a single member of the NLRB without looking it up. Even if they put up a picture of Marx in their board room, they are still the institution that governs this circumstance. They laid claim. Also, that It's not as if the federal courts have not been and will not continue to be involved.

    The NLRB doesn't work like that and those the NW team isn't asking for a whole lot. OTOH, they can make the NCAA pay workers compensation and in terms of how the federal bureaucracy as a whole views it, the semantic front is gone. I imagine a few Congress people will take advantage. With NW having doe this, I imagine the team at Stanford, Notre Dame, or any other non-state school has taken notice. When one of those guys gets hurt and they see what workers compensation is then you will see them starting to look there too.

    The O'Bannon and Kessler cases are different. The O'Bannon case would make it illegal to sell the media or other likeness of an individual without the express consent of the individual which it already is in every other corner of the US. The Kessler case is antitrust. Maybe the NCAA can win the arguments that the NFL, MLB, NBA, EPL, and NHL have all lost.
  9. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    No, I don't think I'm going to let you slide on this one. What I said was Costs of Unionizing Players, which is not the same thing as what it would cost for a Union. Two different things and I know you are intelligent enough to get this. Be intellectually honest with the discussion or what's the point of having one?

    This is all very utopian and I'm sure it will result in only the best intended results but the fact of the matter is that there will be losers and winners. In the end, it will be the students who lose. It's like that NCAA commercial that used to come on.

    There are more than 380000 student-athletes and most of them go pro in something other than sports ..

    That's a fact that seems to be very convenient to overlook. You can say what you want about guys who get paid but in the end, it will be the other 370 some thousand who lose in this deal.

    I see, so based on these very broad strokes, it would be fair to describe you as what? A Unionize at all costs, damned who gets screwed kind of guy?

    Seems a little to convenient to simply label somebody in this fashion, does it not?
  10. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Come on, not even you can believe that.

    It sure seems like it if you live in Detroit thou right?
  11. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    You're really going to have to explain what costs you are talking about I guess.... I tried to read your mind and assumed you were talking about literal costs. I guess you're not talking about literal costs. So tell me what costs you're talking about. I'm not the one trying to dodge the discussion. You're throwing out vague talking points and not elaborating.

    What is utopian about saying the terms student-athlete and employee are not mutually exclusive? I'm not following.

    No they won't... The student-athletes who don't get paid would presumably still have their education paid for through scholarships.

    Or are you fearful that the schools will pay millions of dollars to 10 athletes or so, and not have the ability to fill out the rest of the team? That doesn't sound very rational.


    I'm explaining to you how student-athletes won't get screwed. You haven't said anything substantive other than a bunch of baseless fear mongering.

    Maybe if you were making legit points, then I wouldn't think that.

    Believe what? That taxpayers who have jobs and pay taxes on income are different than student-athletes who get no transferable compensation that they can negotiate based on what the market would demand? Yeah, what a crazy concept.

    What does Detroit have to do with the Northwestern players' union and college football conferences? Try debating the relevant points instead of throwing in red herrings everywhere.
  12. Eric_Boyer

    Eric_Boyer Well-Known Member

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    lets all celebrate the use of collusion to artificially raise costs.

    of course, when employers do the same thing, we universally see it as bad for consumers.

    this is also bad for the consumers, for the very same reasons.
  13. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

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    Just another random question.

    If they're going to be employees, does that make eligibility irrelevant?

    I mean, there's plenty of good college football players who would aren't good enough to play in the NFL. Rather than get a real job, why not just play college ball forever?

    Might be kinda funny. Bunch of Al Bundy's past their prime but still good enough to play out there building their legacies.

    Probably never happen. Doubt the college athletes would want older players hanging around taking up roster spots. Teams though.......might be worth it for them. If you're going to pay someone, might as well pay a proven player.
  14. peplaw06

    peplaw06 That Guy

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    That might be a logical progression of this... I just find it hard to believe that the NCAA would completely throw out the student-athlete model. Maybe they cap a player's eligibility at 5 years or so.

    As it stands now, as long as you don't use up your eligibility and don't declare for the NFL and hire an agent, then you can play up until you're too old and broken down to play. They could throw out the amateurism angle to some extent I guess. In baseball, the NCAA doesn't allow you to get paid obviously, but you can get drafted and still play in college. Just if you start getting paid for playing then you can't play in the NCAA. I think they could work out the details on that to get to a system that the schools and athletes get on board with.

    People will still want their college athletics, IMO.
  15. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    In order to unionize, you must be what first? You must be a EMPLOYEE. What does that mean? What does that mean for future health considerations? What does that mean for things like long term benfits etc.? There are multiple long term financial consideration that are going to have to be taken into consideration here, to say nothing of actual salaries that might be necessary for every scholarshipped player at any given University.

    What do Unions do when they come into a work environment? How do Unions keep membership? What does that mean for long term cost analysis?

    You know this Pep and if you don't, then all you have to do is read the thread because they've already been discussed.


    Nothing, in and of itself. What is Utopian is the concept of Unionization of Collegiate Sports and believing that this will somehow all work out and nobody is going to suffer as a result. That's simply not going to be the case IMO.

    Really, how's that going to work and which athletes are going to get paid and which ones are not?

    Not at all. I'm worried that eventually, all athletes will have to be paid, and not just in salaries but with long term benefits. I'm worried that this will become to costly and it will eventually kill lots of smaller schools sports programs.


    No. Your explaining to me how you think this won't happen. I think you are fooling yourself if you don't believe that this will not eventually evolve into what Unions have done in every segment of Unionized work force. They always try to increase benefits with little to no regard for the long term health of the industry. This will eventually happen to College Athletics as well, if Unionized. I'd bet my life on it.

    Yeah, that's it. Nobody here understands or has a legitimate point. Think what you will. I'm pretty sure you and I both know that what you are eluding to here is not reasonable.

    It is a crazy concept. It's crazy because I don't see how people can not see the long term financial feasibility of Unionization as a death toll for smaller programs and their athletes. I just don't understand it but I suppose we will see.


    Why is it a red herring? Simply because you don't want to face that very inconvenient fact? What does Detroit have to do with Northwestern? Humm......... Let me think about that.

    Detroit was about as heavily Union as any place in America at one time. Now look at Detroit. You know what the correlation is here but you don't want to answer. You can't tell the Pro Union story without also facing the facts of what Unions do. Detroit is a glaring example of what Unions can do. Red Herring........ OK.
  16. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    David Shaw questions unionization
    Updated: April 1, 2014, 1:56 AM ET
    Associated Press

    STANFORD, Calif. -- Stanford coach David Shaw is questioning what's behind the union movement by Northwestern football players, saying everything they are asking for is already being provided by most universities.

    Shaw said following Stanford's spring practice Monday night that he's "curious what's really driving" the union. He said his players are given an athletic scholarship worth about $60,000 annually and have never had to pay for a health care service.

    "I'm as confused as anybody as to the importance of this," Shaw said. "I'm curious what's really driving it. I've seen everything, and everything that's been asked for, my understanding is it's been provided. I think Northwestern does a phenomenal job providing for their kids, and it's weird to try to unionize but still compliment Northwestern and compliment their coaching staff on being taken care of. Those things don't seem to go hand in hand."

    Click on link below to read entire article:
    http://espn.go.com/college-football...ford-cardinal-questions-unionization-movement
  17. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Good write up. When I played in high school guys would do anything to have a college recruiter talk to them and give them a scholorship to be able to get a free college education, I think these idiots take this for granted and the cold hard fact they will be able to do something to build a good like with that degree since few will ever see the NFL. The other problem these schools are private while many schools are state schools and are exempt from these labor laws
  18. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Will be interesting to see what career field Kain Colter eventually end up in.


    I'll tell you this, outgoing Seniors should not be allowed to vote on the Unionization vote IMO. They will be gone and will not have to deal with the eventual outcome. I think it should only be Jr's and lower IMO.

    Water under the bridge now I suppose.
  19. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    True, I would love to see them strike, I have a feeling Northwestern will let them strike until they are collecting social security but they will not be bullied by kids who think this is professional sports
  20. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    I think you are right.
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