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Mukasey Attorney General nomination in jeopardy over Waterboarding

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by ConcordCowboy, Nov 1, 2007.

  1. ConcordCowboy

    ConcordCowboy Mr. Buckeye

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    Kennedy opposes Mukasey as attorney general

    Dem. leader Reid won't promise floor vote if nomination fails in committee


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21577367/

    AG nominee unsure about waterboarding

    Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey's confirmation could be in jeopardy due to his refusal to declare the controversial interrogation tactic of waterboarding. NBC's Mike Viqueira reports.




    WASHINGTON - President Bush, seeking Thursday to salvage the embattled nomination of Michael Mukasey as attorney general, defended the former judge's refusal to say whether he considers waterboarding as illegal torture. But the nomination suffered another setback in the Senate.

    Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said that Muksaey's unwillingness to answer definitively on the legality of the interrogation method that simulates drowning increases the chances that it could be used against U.S. troops.

    "I therefore intend to oppose this nomination," Kennedy said in remarks prepared for the Senate floor. "Judge Mukasey appears to be a careful, conscientious and intelligent lawyer, and he has served our country honorably for many years. But those qualities are not enough for this critical position at this critical time."


    On the upside for the administration, Republican Sens. John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, announced they would support Bush's nominee.

    Bush said it was unfair to ask Mukasey about interrogation techniques on which he has not been briefed. "He doesn't know whether we use that technique or not," the president told a group of reporters invited into the Oval Office.

    Further, Bush said, "It doesn't make any sense to tell an enemy what we're doing."

    Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., whose vote may decide whether Mukasey's nomination survives the Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, said he has not decided but defended his fellow Democrats who have.

    "I do not think Democrats are mistreating him at all," Schumer told reporters.

    Prospects for Mukasey's confirmation have dimmed because of his refusal to equate waterboarding with torture. Three of the 10 Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee have said they will vote against him in the first test of his nomination next Tuesday.

    In a potentially ominous sign for the administration, Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., told reporters he could not guarantee a floor vote if Mukasey's nomination fails in committee.

    "I really believe in the committee process," said Reid, who has not announced how he would vote. "If I'm asked by members of the committee to stay out of the fray, I am willing to do that."

    Bush called on the Senate to promptly approve Mukasey, saying the nation needs to have an attorney general in place to help wage the war on terror.

    "Judge Mukasey is not being treated fairly," the president said. Without saying whether interrogators use waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning, Bush said that "the American people must know that whatever techniques we use are within the law."

    Asked whether he considers waterboarding legal, Bush replied, "I'm not going to talk about techniques. There's an enemy out there."

    Mukasey's confirmation seemed assured two weeks ago but now increasingly is in doubt.

    ‘I cannot stand for that’
    Freshman Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D-R.I., said Wednesday he would oppose the nomination. Mukasey's refusal to say that waterboarding is "unconditionally wrong" would leave open the possibility that U.S. agencies could cross a moral and legal line and use it on detainees, Whitehouse said.

    "If we allow the president of the United States to prevent or to forbid a would-be attorney general of the United States ... from recognizing that bright line, we will have turned down that dark stairway," Whitehouse said. "I cannot stand for that. I will oppose this nomination."

    Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin, D-Ill., also a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, followed Whitehouse to the floor to add his opposition.

    "As good a person as he may be, his response to this question, this basic and fundamental question ... leaves me no alternative but to oppose Judge Mukasey's nomination to be attorney general of the United States," Durbin said.

    Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., announced earlier this week that he would vote no.

    Bush spoke about Mukasey's nomination before delivering a speech Thursday afternoon about the war against terrorism. He said he was concerned that some people "have lost sight of the fact that we are at war with extremists and radicals who want to attack us again." He said it was important that Congress approve the laws, financing and personnel necessary to combat U.S. enemies.


    He said Senate's failure to confirm Mukasey promptly was "not good for the country."

    A trio of Republican senators tried to mollify all sides Wednesday, asking for a commitment from Mukasey if confirmed.

    "We urge you to publicly make clear that waterboarding can never be employed" by any U.S. government agency, wrote Sens. John Warner of Virginia, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and John McCain of Arizona. Bush declined to say whether he agreed with the senators' approach.
  2. trickblue

    trickblue Old Testament... Zone Supporter

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    You go Teddy... you show him what REAL drowning's all about... ;)
  3. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    [IMG]
  4. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Bad Santa Staff Member

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    :laugh2: :bow:
  5. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Bad Santa Staff Member

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    :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

    Have never seen that one.

    :lmao: :lmao:
  6. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Lost in the Woods

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  7. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    we use waterboarding as a training technique for delta force, SEALS, and certain other elite forces. So why not use it on suspects. The Sheik that spilled his guts about 9/11 and lots of other important data was broken by waterboarding. Gutless Dems are willing to put the country in danger to score political points.
  8. ConcordCowboy

    ConcordCowboy Mr. Buckeye

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    OMG that was funny.:D
  9. ConcordCowboy

    ConcordCowboy Mr. Buckeye

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    :laugh2:
  10. joseephuss

    joseephuss Well-Known Member

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    You guys are too funny and also have a lot of free time. Thanks for the laugh.:bow:




    http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

    Waterboarding is Torture… Period (Links Updated # 4)

    Posted by Malcolm Nance on October 31, 2007 2:30 PM


    I’d like to digress from my usual analysis of insurgent strategy and tactics to speak out on an issue of grave importance to Small Wars Journal readers. We, as a nation, are having a crisis of honor.

    Last week the Attorney General nominee Judge Michael Mukasey refused to define waterboarding terror suspects as torture. On the same day MSNBC television pundit and former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough quickly spoke out in its favor. On his morning television broadcast, he asserted, without any basis in fact, that the efficacy of the waterboard a viable tool to be used on Al Qaeda suspects.

    Scarborough said, "For those who don't know, waterboarding is what we did to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who is the Al Qaeda number two guy that planned 9/11. And he talked …" He then speculated that “If you ask Americans whether they think it's okay for us to waterboard in a controlled environment … 90% of Americans will say 'yes.'” Sensing that what he was saying sounded extreme, he then claimed he did not support torture but that waterboarding was debatable as a technique: "You know, that's the debate. Is waterboarding torture? … I don't want the United States to engage in the type of torture that [Senator] John McCain had to endure."

    In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school’s interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique.

    The carnival-like he-said, she-said of the legality of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques has become a form of doublespeak worthy of Catch-22. Having been subjected to them all, I know these techniques, if in fact they are actually being used, are not dangerous when applied in training for short periods. However, when performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt. Couple that with waterboarding and the entire medley not only “shock the conscience” as the statute forbids -it would terrify you. Most people can not stand to watch a high intensity kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American.

    We live at a time where Americans, completely uninformed by an incurious media and enthralled by vengeance-based fantasy television shows like “24”, are actually cheering and encouraging such torture as justifiable revenge for the September 11 attacks. Having been a rescuer in one of those incidents and personally affected by both attacks, I am bewildered at how casually we have thrown off the mantle of world-leader in justice and honor. Who we have become? Because at this juncture, after Abu Ghraieb and other undignified exposed incidents of murder and torture, we appear to have become no better than our opponents.

    With regards to the waterboard, I want to set the record straight so the apologists can finally embrace the fact that they condone and encourage torture.

    History’s Lessons Ignored

    Before arriving for my assignment at SERE, I traveled to Cambodia to visit the torture camps of the Khmer Rouge. The country had just opened for tourism and the effect of the genocide was still heavy in the air. I wanted to know how real torturers and terror camp guards would behave and learn how to resist them from survivors of such horrors. I had previously visited the Nazi death camps Dachau and Bergen-Belsen. I had met and interviewed survivors of Buchenwald, Auschwitz and Magdeburg when I visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. However, it was in the S-21 death camp known as Tuol Sleng, in downtown Phnom Penh, where I found a perfectly intact inclined waterboard. Next to it was the painting on how it was used. It was cruder than ours mainly because they used metal shackles to strap the victim down, and a tin flower pot sprinkler to regulate the water flow rate, but it was the same device I would be subjected to a few weeks later.

    On a Mekong River trip, I met a 60-year-old man, happy to be alive and a cheerful travel companion, who survived the genocide and torture … he spoke openly about it and gave me a valuable lesson: “If you want to survive, you must learn that ‘walking through a low door means you have to be able to bow.’” He told his interrogators everything they wanted to know including the truth. They rarely stopped. In torture, he confessed to being a hermaphrodite, a CIA spy, a Buddhist Monk, a Catholic Bishop and the son of the king of Cambodia. He was actually just a school teacher whose crime was that he once spoke French. He remembered “the Barrel” version of waterboarding quite well. Head first until the water filled the lungs, then you talk.

    Once at SERE and tasked to rewrite the Navy SERE program for the first time since the Vietnam War, we incorporated interrogation and torture techniques from the Middle East, Latin America and South Asia into the curriculum. In the process, I studied hundreds of classified written reports, dozens of personal memoirs of American captives from the French-Indian Wars and the American Revolution to the Argentinean ‘Dirty War’ and Bosnia. There were endless hours of videotaped debriefings from World War Two, Korea, Vietnam and Gulf War POWs and interrogators. I devoured the hundreds of pages of debriefs and video reports including those of then Commander John McCain, Colonel Nick Rowe, Lt. Dieter Dengler and Admiral James Stockdale, the former Senior Ranking Officer of the Hanoi Hilton. All of them had been tortured by the Vietnamese, Pathet Lao or Cambodians. The minutiae of North Vietnamese torture techniques was discussed with our staff advisor and former Hanoi Hilton POW Doug Hegdahl as well as discussions with Admiral Stockdale himself. The waterboard was clearly one of the tools dictators and totalitarian regimes preferred.

    There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists

    1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

    2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

    Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

    Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

    Call it “Chinese Water Torture,” “the Barrel,” or “the Waterfall,” it is all the same. Whether the victim is allowed to comply or not is usually left up to the interrogator. Many waterboard team members, even in training, enjoy the sadistic power of making the victim suffer and often ask questions as an after thought. These people are dangerous and predictable and when left unshackled, unsupervised or undetected they bring us the murderous abuses seen at Abu Ghraieb, Baghram and Guantanamo. No doubt, to avoid human factors like fear and guilt someone has created a one-button version that probably looks like an MRI machine with high intensity waterjets.

    3. If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives. The Small Wars Council had a spirited discussion about this earlier in the year, especially when former Marine Generals Krulak and Hoar rejected all arguments for torture.

    Evan Wallach wrote a brilliant history of the use of waterboarding as a war crime and the open acceptance of it by the administration in an article for Columbia Journal for Transnational Law. In it he describes how the ideological Justice Department lawyer, John Yoo validated the current dilemma we find ourselves in by asserting that the President had powers above and beyond the Constitution and the Congress:

    “Congress doesn’t have the power to tie the President’s hands in regard to torture as an interrogation technique....It’s the core of the Commander-in-Chief function. They can’t prevent the President from ordering torture.”

    That is an astounding assertion. It reflects a basic disregard for the law of the United States, the Constitution and basic moral decency.

    Another MSNBC commentator defended the administration and stated that waterboarding is "not a new phenomenon" and that it had "been pinned on President Bush … but this has been part of interrogation for years and years and years." He is correct, but only partially. The Washington Post reported in 2006 that it was mainly America’s enemies that used it as a principal interrogation method. After World War 2, Japanese waterboard team members were tried for war crimes. In Vietnam, service members were placed under investigation when a photo of a field-expedient waterboarding became publicly known.

    Torture in captivity simulation training reveals there are ways an enemy can inflict punishment which will render the subject wholly helpless and which will generally overcome his willpower. The torturer will trigger within the subject a survival instinct, in this case the ability to breathe, which makes the victim instantly pliable and ready to comply. It is purely and simply a tool by which to deprive a human being of his ability to resist through physical humiliation. The very concept of an American Torturer is an anathema to our values.

    I concur strongly with the opinions of professional interrogators like Colonel Stewart Herrington, and victims of torture like Senator John McCain. If you want consistent, accurate and reliable intelligence, be inquisitive, analytical, patient but most of all professional, amiable and compassionate.

    Who will complain about the new world-wide embrace of torture? America has justified it legally at the highest levels of government. Even worse, the administration has selectively leaked supposed successes of the water board such as the alleged Khalid Sheik Mohammed confessions. However, in the same breath the CIA sources for the Washington Post noted that in Mohammed’s case they got information but "not all of it reliable." Of course, when you waterboard you get all the magic answers you want -because remember, the subject will talk. They all talk! Anyone strapped down will say anything, absolutely anything to get the torture to stop. Torture. Does. Not. Work.

    According to the President, this is not a torture, so future torturers in other countries now have an American legal basis to perform the acts. Every hostile intelligence agency and terrorist in the world will consider it a viable tool, which can be used with impunity. It has been turned into perfectly acceptable behavior for information finding.

    A torture victim can be made to say anything by an evil nation that does not abide by humanity, morality, treaties or rule of law. Today we are on the verge of becoming that nation. Is it possible that September 11 hurt us so much that we have decided to gladly adopt the tools of KGB, the Khmer Rouge, the Nazi Gestapo, the North Vietnamese, the North Koreans and the Burmese Junta?

    What next if the waterboarding on a critical the captive doesn’t work and you have a timetable to stop the “ticking bomb” scenario? Electric shock to the genitals? Taking a pregnant woman and electrocuting the fetus inside her? Executing a captive’s children in front of him? Dropping live people from an airplane over the ocean? It has all been done by governments seeking information. All claimed the same need to stop the ticking bomb. It is not a far leap from torture to murder, especially if the subject is defiant. Are we willing to trade our nation’s soul for tactical intelligence?

    Is There a Place for the Waterboard?

    Yes. The waterboard must go back to the realm of SERE training our operators, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. We must now double our efforts to prepare for its inevitable and uncontrolled use of by our future enemies.

    Until recently, only a few countries considered it effective. Now American use of the waterboard as an interrogation tool has assuredly guaranteed that our service members and agents who are captured or detained by future enemies will be subject to it as part of the most routine interrogations. Forget threats, poor food, the occasional face slap and sexual assaults. This was not a dignified ‘taking off the gloves’; this was descending to the level of our opposition in an equally brutish and ugly way. Waterboarding will be one our future enemy’s go-to techniques because we took the gloves off to brutal interrogation. Now our enemies will take the gloves off and thank us for it.

    There may never again be a chance that Americans will benefit from the shield of outrage and public opinion when our future enemy uses of torture. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of American citizens, agents and members of the armed forces may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora’s box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name of protecting America. To defeat Bin Laden many in this administration have openly embraced the methods of by Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Galtieri and Saddam Hussein.

    Not A Fair Trade for America’s Honor

    I have stated publicly and repeatedly that I would personally cut Bin Laden’s heart out with a plastic MRE spoon if we per chance meet on the battlefield. Yet, once captive I believe that the better angels of our nature and our nation’s core values would eventually convince any terrorist that they indeed have erred in their murderous ways. Once convicted in a fair, public tribunal, they would have the rest of their lives, however short the law makes it, to come to terms with their God and their acts.

    This is not enough for our President. He apparently secretly ordered the core American values of fairness and justice to be thrown away in the name of security from terrorists. He somehow determined that the honor the military, the CIA and the nation itself was an acceptable trade for the superficial knowledge of the machinations of approximately 2,000 terrorists, most of whom are being decimated in Iraq or martyring themselves in Afghanistan. It is a short sighted and politically motivated trade that is simply disgraceful. There is no honor here.

    It is outrageous that American officials, including the Attorney General and a legion of minions of lower rank have not only embraced this torture but have actually justified it, redefined it to a misdemeanor, brought it down to the level of a college prank and then bragged about it. The echo chamber that is the American media now views torture as a heroic and macho.

    Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet, convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured. In essence, our own missteps have created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda’s own virtual SERE school for terrorists.

    Congressional leaders from both sides of the aisle need to stand up for American values and clearly specify that coercive interrogation using the waterboard is torture and, except for limited examples of training our service members and intelligence officers, it should be stopped completely and finally –oh, and this time without a Presidential signing statement reinterpreting the law.
  11. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    In all seriousness ...... Water boarding is torture.


    I have no problem with sleep depredation and mental manipulation against terrorist prisoners ... but I am against anything physical.
  12. ConcordCowboy

    ConcordCowboy Mr. Buckeye

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    You obviously are a gutless Dem willing to put our country in danger to score political points.

    :D
  13. arglebargle

    arglebargle Well-Known Member

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    Great article! Thanks. The sad thing is torture going from an awful abberation, to an excepted occurance. And we still have no idea what is transpiring in those American re-used soviet era secret prisons in the eastern block.

    At least this answers one common retort.
  14. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    Its OPINION, not factual, that waterboarding is torture. And there are JUST as many if not more who say it is not as say it is. Of course the MEDIA will only mention those against it. AND there is one flat out lie in that article. I have heard from people who REALLY know and they say that Sheik Mohammed was shown to have given everything he knew- he just did not know everything. And it was waterboarding that broke him. And I have also heard from sources who flat out say that using it as a training method for our elite forces has made a real difference.
    And I also call BS on the garbage allegation that this will provoke our enemies to torture our troops. Will guess what MORON that was HAPPENING long before any allegations were made. I guess the moron missed the beheadings that happened very early on in Iraq and had happened elsewhere before that.
  15. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Bad Santa Staff Member

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    To me it is quite simple.

    To those that are willing to give our freedoms away they always say...If you have nothing to hide than you have nothing to worry about.

    Shame that does not apply to this administration.

    If the guy does not think it is torture then just come out and say it instead of playing political games.

    Pretty simple to me.
  16. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    [IMG]


    This is to far ..... and is unnecessary with the mental manipulators that are on the CIA payroll.

    They have guys who can talk to someone for a few minutes and have that person in tears ..... making this procedure obsolete.

    We are better than this.
  17. ConcordCowboy

    ConcordCowboy Mr. Buckeye

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    He can't because he most likely thinks it is torture and since we use it it would mean that we torture people...which would make Bush out to be a liar...since he says we don't torture people.
  18. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Lost in the Woods

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    Maybe we should waterboard him to find out what he really thinks.
  19. ZeroClub

    ZeroClub just trying to get better

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    That's it exactly.

    And a reason why Bush is threatening not to name another AG if Muksaey loses his vote.

    If Muksaey loses his vote, then next nominee will be asked the very same torture question (and find himself painted into the very same corner).
  20. arglebargle

    arglebargle Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure the Geneva convention defines it as such. Pretty sure the house and senate passed a law forbidding it. Pretty sure the President decided to ignore it. Pretty sure the author of that piece has more stones in the game than you. Pretty sure I will always think of George Bush as 'the torture President'. Relatively sure you will still be apologizing for him when the nasty truth finally comes out.

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