Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Verdict, Jun 14, 2013.
Holy crap that was horrible
Fans want quality linemen. Livings, Bernadeau and Free are not quality. How do you think fans are going overboard wanting these players gone? You also want credit given for Leary, Frederick and Smith. Smith has not met expectations yet and he may never be anything more than an average LT. Giving credit for Fred or Leary is a joke. Neither has played a down in a regular season game. What credit do you want given for player that hasn't reached his potential and two players that hasn't played? Do you want the Cowboys to get an A for effort? An effort that came four years too late, by the way.
You have taken the position that you don't want many resources going to the line and that other areas should come first. Your position has reflected the way Jerry wants to handle things. This approach has been a failure. I wouldn't be proud that your position and Jerrys are the same. If you want to make the point that they are trying to improve the line, I would agree. If you think it is fixed, you are dead wrong. If you are happy with a serviceable line and I think you would be, maybe your wish will come true. I would rather have the line be a strength for the team instead of serviceable. That is just a difference in my standards and yours.
The truth of the matter is that Costa didn't play enough snaps last year to know wheather he improved from the season before. What you are labeling as disdain is actually fans wanting better play from Costa or an upgrade at the position.
No many fans here have utter disdain for several of the OL and their opinions, while important, don't reflect what we not only hear from the coaching staff but more importantly what they are doing with them.
I find it difficult to have a great deal of disdain or any other emotion or reaction to some of the players like Leary, Ski, Arkin, and Weems. The at times hatred for Free does not match what the team did by resigning him. I had no problems with them insisting on a pay reduction to more reflect his performance the last two years and paying him as a RT. We know little about Arkin but venom is spewed in his direction. If you don't know what a player can do then you wait until you have a proper evaluation. Ski fits that scenario.
If you want to lament the fact we have so many unanswered questions then I'm right there with you. If you are upset over the lak of success along the OL in acquiring productive talent as of the end of last year then ok with that too.
Basically many fans evaluations are just too at odds with the teams behavior about some players along with the tape and stats of some.
However, I agree with the number of unknowns we just can't count on having a finished product at this time. We'll have to wait on what comes with TC.
If it were just that fans want better quality, I'd agree with you. But you're understating the case. Words and phrases like 'abysmal,' 'garbage,' 'worst-ever' are what I was alluding to. Because they go dramatically overboard.
As far as Smith, Leary, and Frederick go, I'm just saying that I'd credit the organization for identifying their potential and bringing them onto the roster. I don't think that's all that farfetched.
I didn't say 'Jerry,' I was referring to the organization as a whole. But you're right that I've said just having an ok line overall would be fine with me. I believe we need to put resources into the OT and C positions, and into coaching and developing mid-round talent into capable starters. That's pretty common across the league, and it's the smart way to allocate scarce resources. If you don't have an system in place that can do that, I'd rather see us fix the system instead of overspending on one position group while neglecting other groups that typically require those premium resources in order to find players with the skills to be competitive.
It's not a difference in standards, though. You'd just spend your precious resources differently than I would. I happen to think we're doing the right thing. And, you're right, we'll find out this season.
I will say again that I think the team made a mistake in not making an aggressive move to upgrade RT. RT was a position that legitimately hurt us last year, and we're trusting the staff to fix it with the players already on the roster. That's being done for financial reasons which I understand, but I think there's a high likelihood it ends up hurting us offensively.
Call me crazy but I believe in Doug Free. : I've stated since the defeat to the Redskins that he would be back and would compete for a starting job in camp. I think he wins the battle with Parnell if he stays healthy.
Like I said, I may be crazy. :banghead:
It wouldn't shock me. I just think it was a bad bet, especially when there were relatively affordable options out there. But I do like Doug Free. I think the team likes his work ethic and attitude. I'd be happy if he panned out this year. And even happier if Parnell out plays him (because I think he's got more physical upside).
I think this is the key. IMO, his biggest challenge is mental; he needs to find the confidence he displayed a few years back.
It's the old 'if he's done it before, he can do it again' thing. He might be able to. I think the team expects he can and thinks Parnell's developing quickly, too. They also probably think Tony's remarkably good at avoiding pressure off the tackles and that they've got some margin for error as a result.
Personally, I'd rather we had another developing OT prospect, anyway. Only have 3 real ones on the roster made me uncomfortable last year, and it does again this season. I'd be happier with another 2-3rd round talent coming up through the ranks. And I think both Free and Parnell are reasonable talents to have on the roster as starting prospects, but I'd be happier if both were considered long shots for playing time the way Will Allen and Wilcox are at S. One more starting-possible contender for that spot would make me feel a lot better about the likelihood of *somebody* stepping up.
I am really hoping that Leary can make a run at one of the G positions, preferably for Bernadeau. As a starter I don't like Bernadeau, but as a swing man for the 3 interior line positions he has value.
This is the biggest concern. The loser of the RT battle can be a good backup but they need to find a developmental player soon; I do not think neither Free nor Parnell have a long-term future.
I think that's ultimately the right position for him, too. A guy who can give you starting snaps in a pinch.
Same here. I do not trust Bernadeau nor Livings.
Livings is someone we are kind of stuck with because of the contract. He is serviceable, but that is about it.
IDK, Free is a proven starter and the one we have decided to keep. We could have signed someone else and let Free go at only a minor increment in cost that has more to do with accounting than actual overall costs over the next 3 years of Cap space. That is the FO's opinion on the matter and I don't know what happened behind closed doors when Callahan assayed the tape and the improvement in Free's play late in the year with the split snaps.
The other possibiity is they just wanted to buy a bit of time for Parnell and have a fall back option they were comfortable with in case he failed. Parnell looked okay late last year when inserted in the lineup. We really didn't have a shot at one of the top OTs in the draft and the guy who was left over, Menelik Watson, arguably is far less ready than Parnell right now to play. The coaches see what he can do in practice and have probably dissected all his snaps to study his performance and look for in-game weaknesses and any adustments he was making to them. I honestly think the fan base would be somewhat assuaged if they did a "Pro Day" for Parnell who wasn't invited to the Combine and didn't even really have a defined position when he was a UDFA and went through about 4 different positions in 2009-2010 in his Sr. season with Mississipppi State and then the Saints before we plucked him and stuck him at OT and kept him there. So he really only has 2 years of experience at any level and very little game experience to fall back upon. My guess is he would "shoot up the boards" in fans opinion if they found out about him, saw his numbers and had scouts talk about his potential in the media. He may even be a more prototypical specimen than Tyron - 6-6, 312 pounds, 37 inch arms, big hands, immense power with the strongest punch by an OL that Woicik has ever seen. Remember this guy was around with Flo, Larry Allen, Logan Mankins, Sebastian Vollmer and Erik Williams and hey he's saying Parnell has more functional upper body strength to push back on DL than any of those guys. This guy was a basketball player just 3 yeas ago with no football experience and weighed 250 pounds. What's he going to be like after a couple more years of lifting weights? He appears to have good feet and even if he didn't he still has those long and strong arms. I know xwalker looked at his snaps from the past year and great detail and said that teams quickly found they couldn't go around him and they coudln't go through him so they resorted to trying to trick him but he was picking things up there quite quickly too. He also has a nasty streak and appears to have a protective streak in him for our players which seems to be something we have been lacking around here for awhile and hopefully things stop now with TFred and Parnell protecting Romo and the skilled players from defenders who want to take "cheap shots" against us and that will be a welcom change. The only thing he doesn't really have is live game experience which he can only get through being put out there. I know in a recent article saying he was initially quite shocked to see firsthand how violent true game snaps are compared to just practice and preseason. I think we have found our next UDFA "diamond" and just need to polish it up a bit with some snaps.
Given this backdrop I think Callahan and the FO like what Parnell represents for our future and just wanted Free for depth purposes and a fallback option in case Parnell fails when put into full-time duty and that is fine by me. I really think any 2nd or 3rd round pick we threw out there would be far inferior to Parnell so I don't see the point in reaching in the draft.
Behind our top 3 I am actually quite excited to see what we have in Darrion Weems. The FO has seen him for a couple of weeks before the end of the season and again in mini-camps and they may be high on him. He played for one of the top offenses in college football but in an atypical scheme at Oregon so he was hard to assesss. He seems to have okay measurables and did okay in the last preseason. The opinion may be that he was as good as any of the guys available from the 3rd round on. If you remember our board, we didn't really think much of most of the OL after TFred in this past draft with a huge gap before the next guy. Rightly or wrongly that was the scouts' opinion.
They also seem to like this Coughman fellow. Who knows what happens with Arkin. They may just decide that he is an OT after all and move him back out there. His biggest issue seems to be anchor and that is a bigger issue at OG than OT since you face much bigger and often shorter DL on the inside than the outside and he had decent feet, decent athleticism and had 34 inch arms with 25 bench presses with a 4.63 shuttle with decent explosion in a 29 inch vertical and 8-7 broad jump. Finally even Leary could be considered in a position switch although I think they are happy with him at OG and there aren't any concerns about his functional strength there inside.
The cupboard may not be bare as we think. I know it is also popular groupthink here to believe the FO, scouts and OL coaches have no idea what they are doing and going by their record since 2001 there is reason for skepticism for lack of OL development. The only real quality starters developed in house have been Gurode, Free and pulling Colombo, a former first rounder with a bad leg injury, off of the scrap heap. But that is the old regime who were looking for a different kind of player to play a different scheme. There just hasn't been enough time to assess Callahan who comes with a proven track record of success over many years. We also look to really by going more full bore with the zone blocking and running all those stretch plays based on the hire of Pollack and some of the info from scouts who watched mini-camp and OTAs. This scheme shift should really help take pressure off the OL and Romo as we saw firsthand how much better the Redskins looked after implementing the scheme more fully this past season without much investment in top quality vets or high draft picks.
I think there is some reason for cautious optimism but we won't know until we see some proof of improvement in at least the preseason OL performance with the first stringers although the real litmus test will be the regular season. I don't think it is likely we'll see any more OL investment unless we are stealing someone's developmental project off of the PS again.
Really nice post Eskimo. Enjoyed it. Thanks for taking the time.
Nice post, Eskimo. I feel the same about Parnell and Free. For the money they signed Free for they are fine with his being a swing tackle or starter at RT. And as well should Smith go down then you can put Free back at LT and not have to switch Parnell although I suspect they will be looking at Parnell as a LT as well. I like having Parnell as that gives the team some leverage should Smith not be elite at LT going into another contract.
I still believe that one or two guys will arise from the depth we have to contribute; maybe even start. We're in much better shape than last year IMO. I'll temper my enthusiasm with the fact that we still have a relatively unproven starter at LT, a beat up and questionable LG and unproven RG who flashes, and question marks at RT albeit not as much IMO.
Good post. I have my fingers crossed, but can you imagine if at the end of this year Leary and Parnell have panned out and became starters and performed well. Our OLine would be set for the next few years with Smith/Leary/Fred/Parnell - going into next year only needing to find another quality guard vs 2 OG's and RT.
I'd love having those 4 guys as the lynch pins for a very strong and athletic OL for the next several years. I also think that all of them have a > 50% chance of being quality starters by next year but I think it is conceivable they could all be league average this year. Smith is the furthest along in his development and I expect a top 10 year out of him this year. He has always been a good run blocker and this ZBS could make him a superstar with his ability to move in space. The only one who I worry a bit about is TFred but he looks to be in much better shape now than he was at the Combine and during the 2012 season. I suspect a large part of that is further dedication to training and diet and no need to divert time to his Engineering degree anymore. You just don't see many players who are as good at him doing schooling that is that challenging.
I think we can have the best of both worlds actually. Those guys can all move but they are also all very powerful at the point of attack. So we can stretch them and pound them - we'll treat them like pizza shells and flatten them out nice and good.
IMO, no one would be taking any liberties with Romo knowing those guys are out there.
Another good post, and I don't really disagree with it. You're higher on Weems than I am, and I hope you're right. I should clarify, that there really wasn't a guy who fit for us at OT in the first or second rounds and that I'm only saying I'd be happier with the three we've got and a young developing player we were grooming for a starting role of his own. If Weems or Edawn Coughman ends up being that player, I'm thrilled. I haven't seen enough of either to have a strong opinion one way or another. Only saying that I wish we the prospects we had there weren't relative long shots.