Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Yuma Cactus, Jan 12, 2013.
the thread that wont die.
I should add this
Bud Foster at Virginia Tech quickly found a way to "beat" the Rich Rod spread being run at WVU.
WVU had success against VT in 2003, but then struggled against the VT D in 2004 and 2005 (the last times the team played)
Part of it was talent, the VT defense got much better at the LB spots in 2004 and 2005. And that is the key to me, having superior linebacker play.
In the end superior athletes will win out, which is why GT and its triple option always struggles against UGA and other SEC teams, the caliber of athletes are better.
In the NFL you do NOT have that type of discrepancy in talent, and if you do it is rare. A team like the 49ers with its front 7 might be it right now, Justin Smith can dominate the LOS.
Nothing in football is new. Nothing. You can rename it or call it something else or do whatever you want but I guarantee you, it's not new.
The only thing new in football is the improvement in the actual athlete or the design of the equipment.
Who invented the Shotgun?
Don't worry Chris, once these QBs start dropping like flies, this thread, along with that offense will die plenty fast.
The shotgun was used first by the Cowboys in the 70s
"Its a gimmick!" they said
"Defenses will figure it out, you are always passing!" they claimed
The shotgun has stuck around since then. As will the read option.
Now the elements of the 21st century read option (notice my designation of 21st century) is based on the old school veer offenses from before the 80s, with the modern touch of the inflection point being behind the LOS, as opposed to running along the LOS like tradition option offenses do.
Rich Rod, Urban Meyer, Chris Kelly, Paul Johnson are the main practitioners of the 21st century read option.
Chris Ault added the "pistol" in 2005.
The Redskins essentially married the pistol, to the ZBS that Shanahan had run for 20 years, along with the read option elements from Baylor.
I look forward to what will be next.
Yeah, I'm with ABQ on this. You can dress it up and make little changes, but there's not really anything new under the sun. The wildcat is the single wing. The spread is the veer run from the shotgun. And so on.
The real difference is that passing has become so much more prevalent (a lot due to rules changes) that kids are learning to pass and catch much better at a younger age. In the past these wishbone or veer option QBs who couldn't throw at all now learn great mechanics when they're 10 years old. So now it's not just a running option offense, but one with a passing threat as well.
From the smart football article
Agree,which is what makes this so dangerous.
RG3 wouldn't be nearly as effective if he couldn't do what he did on Thanksgiving and down in New Orleans.
Without the passing component this offense wouldn't work.
its really these Skin fans who keep it going, lord knows if they didnt have a read option QB, they too would think its a gimmick that will soon die.
I have read smart football for years. I became enamored with the concepts seeing Cam run it last year. I actually fly to Oregon games to see the Chip Kelly offense then watch my own college play (Virginia Tech)
Seeing it expand this year has been exciting. I am looking forward to whats next.
And what was Roger Staubach when he first came out of the Navy? Was he considered a traditional drop back passer or was he running QB?
And Chris Ault was not the inventor of this offense, nor was Rodriguez, nor was Urban Meyer or Chris Kelly or Paul Johnson. The run and shoot was around long before the Pistol, which was the same type of principle and there was also the Red Gun which was basically the same thing but used more zone flood principles and before that. The Zone Read, the Oklahoma Offense, which is basically a Split T which came from a Don Faurat.
This can go back a long way. You can even make a case that the principles of this offense came from Paul Brown and his old Ohio Offense, which would be hard to argue against.
It's not new. It's just recycled.
If the game did not protect the QB so much, this offense would never be run in the NFL. RG3 is a great QB but I do not believe he will last long in the NFL if they continue to run this offense.
Just some uselss trivia, but my parents retired in Fancy Gap, Va and they know Beamer. They say he's a good guy.
Actually, it was created by Red Hickey with the 49ers in the 1950s.
Hickey came to the Cowboys as an assistant in the 1970s, and he and Landry implemented it in the 1975 season.
Red Hickey, 49ers, late 1950s, is generally credited with the shotgun formation in the pros. Before that TCU meistro Leo "Dutch" Meyer used the double wing formation and was known for it. Double wings are ancient.
From Dana Bible's book on football, copyrighted 1947, I have this screen shot..
Which of course completely misses the point. I don't think ABQCOWBOY has the skill to distinguish between a QB draw out of a shotgun formation and a zone read play, when he has no video to refer to, and is relying on 12 year old memories.
It's almost 100% certain the zone read was not part of Virgina Tech's nor the Atlanta Falcons offense. But ABQCOWBOY has Vick running the spread option in college and in the pros.
Around 2000-2001, who was paying attention to it? Urban Meyer, Rich Rodriguez, Scott Lineham? That's about it.
So the first notable use of spread option concepts would have been with Tommy Bowden, who had Rich as his offensive coordinator at Tulane and Clemson. And Rich really didn't have a breakout season as a HC until 2002.
Urban Meyer wasn't a head coach until 2001, and really didn't attract too much attention until he became head coach at Utah (2003-2004) and started winning there.
Michael Vick was drafted in 2001. Again, I ask, where did he learn the modern spread offense?
Your QB will get hit whether he remains in the pocket or not, despite the scheme being used. It's the nature of the game. That doesn't mean that employing the read option means he'll get hit more. Luck took more hits than RG3 did last season, and Luck is a pocket passer. Romo has been injured from hits in the pocket. Griffin didn't take any hard hits last season on any read option play where he ran....I did see him get planted while throwing a pass from the Pistol.
If your premise is that many of these athletic QBs can't handle the grind of the NFL game period. I think you may have a point, but it has nothing to do with the read option. That is a misconception people keep repeating because someone else said it and it sounds right.
I watched a Packers game this season in which Rodgers scrambled from the pocket and slide right before a defender nearly took his head off. He only gained six yards, but the only difference between that play and the play Griffin injured his LCL on is Rodgers slide right before a defender dove at him and Griffin tried to get more yards. Both of them were attempting to pass from the pocket, both of them had no one open and collapsing protection, both of them scrambled to avoid the sack except one made an unsafe decision when the defense closed in. That isn't a scheme issue, it's a player issue.
F-A-U-R-O-T. Faurot. You can't even get his name right.
And no, the split T option (don't block a player on the side of the run) is not the same thing as the zone read (in the original form, don't block a DE away from the run). Different formation, different unblocked defender, different blocking techniques (man to man blocking in the 1940s, while modern zone reads use zone blocking, Alex Gibbs style).
Chris Brown says it better than I do, so I'll quote him:
I think so. The kid is accurate as all get out too. That goes a long way. He will be special. Give up our draft for the next two years when he comes out after next season.
Cmon Jerry, pull a Joey Galloway-draft for next offseason.
There is no question, QBs are going to take hits regardless of what offense they play in. However, QBs are very protected while in the pocket. It's much easier for QBs to cover up, get rid of the ball or simply protect themselves while in the pocket. If you break the pocket and specifically if you run past the LOS, then it's a different ball game and you are going to see guys take shots on your QB. Obviously the bigger you are, the better you will be able to absorb those hits but it really doesn't matter how big you are, eventually you are going to get hit. It makes no sense to allow your QB to increase the chances of that eventuality.
I am not certain which play RG3 was injured on. As I understand it, that is a bit of a question mark. However, I think you can look at a guy like Vick and see that the game will catch up to you in that type of offense.
Really? Your going to drag the conversation down to this? Tell me you even had a clue who he was prior to that post. It's fine, I spelled his name wrong. Obviously that invalidates whatever I've posted. Good one.
I am certain that I explained the fact that these were all variations of the same basic principles. Are you going to turn that around and say that if you line up in a 43 and run a twist with the DE and DT, as opposed to just crashing the DT that it's not really a 43 because, well, the DLs did something a little different there and so no, it can't be?
The Split T, did it widen stances in order to try and spread the defense out?
Is this not what the Spread Does today?
By leaving the DE unblocked and thus forcing him to make a decision, is that not the same principle that the Zone Read is based on?
Come on. The principles are shared and the idea is the same. You want to pick it apart because there are subtle differences, OK. Suit yourself but at the end of the day, they are still trying to take advantage of the same things. It's not new.
Would have been a lot easier if you would have simply said that the spread is an evolution of the Run and Shoot (most credit to Ellison and Mouse Davis), which is what I believe I tried to explain earlier. However, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.