1. Welcome to CowboysZone!  Join us!  Come on!  You know you want to!

Report: US no closer to Iraq goals

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by silverbear, Apr 7, 2008.

  1. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_no_closer

    Yeah, that surge has REALLY made a difference; here we are, five years after invading, and our own experts are telling us we have made no real progress... five years after invading, and they forecast that it will take another five to ten years before we can even think about getting out of there...

    Well, what makes them think that we can accomplish in the next five to ten years what we have been unable to accomplish in the last five?? How long have the Israelis been battling terrorism at home?? If we stay there, things will remain the same, nothing will change... we are doing precisely what I've said we were doing all along, propping up a government at the point of a gun... the refusal of 1000 Iraqi soldiers to fight in Basra is symptomatic of the problems we've created there...

    We've lost 4000 good young American soldiers, and STILL "mission accomplished" is not in sight... that's what they call a "quagmire", folks...
  2. Jon88

    Jon88 Benched

    7,665 Messages
    0 Likes Received
  3. Jordan55

    Jordan55 Active Member

    1,176 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Rebuttal
    From a conservative rag:)


    [IMG]
  4. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed...part 2 Zone Supporter

    29,005 Messages
    1,935 Likes Received
    you've already proven you won't recognize progress. it's counter to your own personal goals. i also find it funny an article YOU point to says we can't pull out now or it would result in chaos. yet, you and your singular vision says in another thread you won't vote for anyone unless they have a plan to get us the "bleep" out of there.

    so do you now cherry pick into your own articles and pull out what props up YOUR argument and the rest is wrong? i don't filter so easily, bear.
  5. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Sorry, Jon, this issue is NOT going away... you can count on the Democrats beating that horse right up til November, as they should...

    Besides, it can only be a "dead horse" if the horse is dead, y'know, and the Iraq war is very much alive...

    So you can count on me continuing to bang that drum at every opportunity... I HATE this war, and I won't be content until all our soldiers are out of there...
  6. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed...part 2 Zone Supporter

    29,005 Messages
    1,935 Likes Received
    these the same democrats who before bush was ever president or could "lie" to everyone they also said saddam had WMD and must go but they were wrong, not liars? just wondering.
  7. vta

    vta The Proletariat

    8,746 Messages
    5 Likes Received
    Well if the goal was to simply invade a country with the intention of getting out as soon as possible, then I suppose this article would have merit.

    But that's not the goal, so whether or not the U.S. is closer to it's goal than a year ago, is in no way indicated in what is written in this article.
  8. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Worse, a conservative rag whose senior writer freely admits they have at best a casual relationship with the truth...

    I mean, right from the opening sentence, you read "as the reduction in violence in Iraq becomes incontestable"... uhhhh, incontestable to WHO?? I'm reading that violence is once again surging in freakin' Baghdad, and that's the area the "surge" was supposed to "pacifiy"...

    Having started that propaganda piece with a blatant lie, I found no reason to read further... you really ought to try to find yourself some news outlets that are more credible...
  9. REDVOLUTION

    REDVOLUTION Return to Dominance

    27,157 Messages
    1,976 Likes Received
    These things take time.
    You CANNOT have play by play on a war and its progress.

    Check out the story behind our own Declarion of Independence of 1776. Jully 4th right? or was it?



    In a way I cannot blame some for not recognizing or wanting to recognize progress. The leftist media wont allow it. We are what we are told in large part.

    To say that there has been no progress in Iraq or Afghanistan is just uninformed. Our media could be a little more honest with us instead of just money/agenda driven.
  10. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

    80,841 Messages
    5,131 Likes Received
    I like how you pick and choose from the entire artical that you post as some kind of statement of US failure. Granted there is still work to be done especially on the political side in Iraq but progress is taking place despite your failure to understand. Some of these same experts hollered how Iraq would be in Civil War and that did not come to pass either. Please continue to paint the one sided picture it really shows your true colors.
  11. vta

    vta The Proletariat

    8,746 Messages
    5 Likes Received
    That's quite an interesting attitude to take.
    Considering what you posted as the OT; which facts correlate with it being anything more than a propoganda piece itself?

    It's predicated on a supposed goal of the war and in using this, tries to state a truth, which it can't.

    Who, in any position of authoriy has stated that the goal is to leave Iraq any time soon? At which point during any speeches given, by those in authority to make decisions, has anyone said that the goal is to simply leave?

    Yes, they say we can't leave until the Iraqi's can take care of themselves, but this is simply double talk for those discontent with the war.

    How is this article rooted in any kind of reality, when it's position on what the goals of the war are differ from reality?
  12. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Show me some, and I'll recognize it... I have just posted an article from the think tank that advised the Iraq Study Group in 2006, saying there is no real progress being made...

    That was the whole point of the article, ice; did you even bother to read it?? I thought it was a compelling indictment of this administration's strategy in Iraq...

    If there was any progress we could point to, I'd admit as much... I have no idea why you're trying to paint me as some kind of liar here, but it won't work...

    Your problem with me is that I stand up and speak what I see to be the truth, not that I lie... your problem is that I not only speak what I see to be the truth, I defend that truth...

    Exactly... I have also said that I don't CARE about Iraq... that whole s***hole of a country is not worth one dead American soldier, let alone 4000 of 'em... if they weren't sitting on a jillion gallons of oil, we would never have cared about them...

    Yes, I have addressed the "chaos in Iraq" argument, repeatedly... but since you apparently missed my response, I'll address it one more time, just for you:

    We created chaos in Iraq, when we invaded... after the invasion, what was easily predictable did in fact happen, Iraq descended into a bloody civil war, wherein Shiite, Sunni and Kurd vie for control of the country... it was inevitable once we created the power vaccuum in that country, Dubya and his boys were apparently the only onces too STUPID to anticipate what happened...

    Chaos will reign in Iraq so long as we remain an occupying army, and yes, the minute we get out, chaos will reign supreme... it is completely inevitable, there's not a thing we can do to stop it... this is the lesson we SHOULD have learned from the Israelis, but again, our leaders were either too stupid or too arrogant to think about what they were doing...

    So, if we remain there ten more years, I have no confidence that things will be any better than they are right now... chaos will STILL reign... and whenever we do finally get out of there, chaos will again reign, until those people decide FOR THEMSELVES what kind of government they want...

    The truth is, we're only there because we're desperately afraid that the form of government they'll choose will be another radical, Islamic fundamentalist government... but y'know, it's up to the Iraqi people, not us, to decide those issues...

    If I was doing that, I wouldn't have linked you to the entire article, and you know it... in fact, I addressed their claims that we needed to remain there for at least another five or ten years quite directly... I said that nothing would be different then than it is now, except more people will be dead... I said that we should ask the Israelis how it's worked out for them, battling terrorism for what, fifty years plus now??

    And are they any closer to being safe from such terrorism than they were back then??
  13. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    All those Democrats knew is what your precious Dubya was telling them... so yeah, they were misled, and so long as they're now willing to stand up and admit they made a mistake, I can forgive them for it... after all, I let myself be misled too...

    You keep thinking you're gonna play a game of "gotcha" with me, ice, and demonstrate that my positions are somehow inconsistent, but you can play that game from now until next year, and you still won't find any inconsistencies in my beliefs, or in my arguments...

    I believe that Republican foreign policy has led us into a disastrous mistake, and I'm pissed at them for that... I believe that Republican economic policies are driving our economy in the toilet, making their rich backers richer at the expense of the rest of us... I believe their imperialistic agenda when it comes to foreign policy has greatly contributed to their FUBAR'ing of the economy, so in that sense the issues are inextricably intertwined...

    And I believe that the Republicans have left us at greater risk from terrorism, rather than making us safer... IOW, ice, I believe that the failure of the GOP has been disastrous for our country... and any candidate still toeing the Republican party line does not deserve to hold office...
  14. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    OK, I'll bite-- what exactly do you think the goal IS?? What exactly have we gained by invading Iraq??
  15. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Well, that's a nice little diatribe, but it ignores one little, rather important fact-- the source of this article is not the "leftist media", it's a think tank that advised the Iraq Study Group... IOW, it's an organization that has studied the progress of the war quite closely, an organization that Congress trusted enough to allow them to advise the Iraq Study Group...

    So you can't blow off their conclusions with another tired ol' right wing attack on the "leftist media"... doing that is nothing but a blatant attempt to deflect attention off the issues raised by that think tank...

    And FWIW, not once have I spoken in opposition to our mission in Afghanistan, so dragging that into this discussion is another feeble attempt at misdirection...

    However, I expected no less when I started this thread... I KNEW you ardent supporters of the neandercon world view would do anything to nudge this thread off-topic...
  16. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed...part 2 Zone Supporter

    29,005 Messages
    1,935 Likes Received
    stopped reading here bear.

    1. this was before bush was in office. clinton and many major dems all said saddam had WMD and must go. is bush such a great liar he can now do it before he's ever in office?

    2. my precious dubya - he's not that to me but you seem to need to make it adversarial. please stop putting me in an extreme because it helps your views. i'm not an extremist.
  17. vta

    vta The Proletariat

    8,746 Messages
    5 Likes Received
    After a simple, cursory glance at the facts, this artcle is a disingenuous bit of garbage, which, you'll notice doesn't even post a link to the stated report, despite that it's fuly available to the public. It takes bits and pieces, puts them out of context and uses it as what? A proppoganda piece.

    Read the actual report, with it's stated goals,

    • Prevent Iraq from becoming a haven or platform for international terrorists
    • Restore U.S. credibility, prestige and capacity to act worldwide
    • Improve regional stability
    • Limit and redirect Iranian influence
    • Maintain an independent Iraq as a single state

    In which 'leaving Iraq' is not one and it's various acknowledgements of progress in Iraq:

    A main achievement of the central government has been collection and distribution of oil revenue. Spending has improved: upwards of 60 percent of the capital budget in 2007 compared to less than 20 percent in previous years.

    Various factors have decreased instability. An indigenous tribal movement known as the Awakening (Sahwa), mainly but not exclusively Sunni, has arisen to fight al-Qaeda and, in some cases, to take part in the political process.

    The policy in Iraq is two-pronged, incorporating both bottom-up and top-down approaches.

    Bottom-up

    Bottom-up tactics in Baghdad and central and western Iraq have brought about increased security, functioning provincial and local governments, improved provision of government services and some economic development.


    In recent months, there appear to have been modest improvements in the behavior of both Syria and Iran: the U.S. military seems to think that fewer insurgents are being allowed to infiltrate from Syria, and the number of attacks on Coalition forces attributable to Iranian-origin weapons had apparently declined, at least until the Iraqi government operation against JAM in Basra and the JAM’s response against the Green Zone in Baghdad.

    ... read the rest at the link. It's an honest assessment, that cites gains and failures, without the filtering of some authors partisan opinion fouling it up.
  18. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

    33,307 Messages
    1,026 Likes Received
    :lmao2:


    :lmao:


    Old bear is gonna make this next election very enjoyable
  19. silverbear

    silverbear Semi-Official Loose Cannon

    24,188 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    I posted the relevant facts to the point I intended to make... I linked you to the full article, if you wished the entire story...

    The think tank that published the study would seem to disagree with you... and y'know, I don't see any real progress either...

    I see the surge pacified Baghdad for a time, now I see renewed violence there... I see the Iraqi army going down to fight al-Sadr's militia in Basra, and 1000 of their soldiers refusing to engage the enemy...

    It worked the same way in Vietnam, Dooms; we'd concentrate our forces in one sector, and when we did, our superiority in firepower was successful in pacifying that sector... at which point, the enemy would slip away into the jungle, to reappear where we were NOT concentrated in force... and when we'd move forces to address that new threat, as likely as not, violence resumed in the sector we'd just "pacified"...

    Hit and move, Dooms, hit and move... that was the enemy's strategy in Vietnam, it's the enemy' strategy in Iraq... there IS no real, sustainable progress in Iraq, and there never will be, so long as the entire Islamic world sees us as an invading infidel army in the heart of Islam...

    How naive are you?? There's a civil war going on RIGHT NOW...

    My "true colors" are the TRUTH... that's the only thing I owe allegiance to, in these debates... and I didn't "paint this picture", I merely reported what some EXPERTS painted...
  20. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

    80,841 Messages
    5,131 Likes Received
    Very true, the reports that Bush was getting was the same reports that the Clinton administration was getting which indicated WMD's even the groups looking for the WMD said there was chemical and biological weapons that were not accounted for

Share This Page