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This is what happens when you don't build your team from the trenches out

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by AmberBeer, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. jobberone

    jobberone Orangutan for hire; blues and southern rock Staff Member

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  2. Ken

    Ken Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree but there are only a few teams in the league that can withstand the injuries that the cowboys have had on both lines and one of them is SF.
  3. Bigdog24

    Bigdog24 Well-Known Member

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    Just to play the devils advocate here: I believe the best DT didn't play last year cause of foot injury, got into a heated argument with the OWNER then got a DUI after another player on the team died and another is on his way to jail (Brent).......So I dont see how people call RATLIFF the best DT on the team,,,he hasnt played enough to be called a player on the team......unless you are talking about someone else.

    The TEAM and most of the FANS knew then and know now RATLIFF is a HEADCASE who doesnt want to play....yet, is enjoying cashing Jerry Jones checks every week while not earning any of it.......as far as the 2nd year player your talking about, I am assume your talking about Crawford...and yes that one hurts,, good guy, great potential....but like Matt Johnson does no good if you cant get on the field.

    But the bottom line the Cowboys GM off season moves continues to plague this team.....Jerry Jones claimed the strength of the Defense was the DL ....what a just joke, then there are those trying to claim he drafted 2 first round OL in the last years.....which is factually true....but then he compliments them with marginal to serviceable at time backups players that other team cut... so in realty Cowboys OL has 2 first round OLmen. 2 backup guards (Benny and livingston) who once apon a time started on a Dallas team and then Doug Free who was giving a crazy money and just fail off a cliff. But the Cowboys do have a top 6 pick and 50million CB in the back field......


    I get what you saying tho....I am just playing devils advocate here...... Championships are won in the trenches,,,,ask Emmitt, ask Troy.....ask the Redskins HOGs. As Ray Lewis who had Tony Saragusa and Nagata as nose tackles,...... its the foundation that builds championships.....ala 17 years and counting for Jerry Jones Cowboys.[/quote]
  4. Ken

    Ken Well-Known Member

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    I have 3 super bowl rings in the 90s that says you can build a great offensive line without a high round pick. That is what world Jerry has been living in. I can't say I blame him either. Not to mention he has spared no cent to invest in the OL coach for the last 5 + years. He should be getting a bit more than he has in all honesty.
  5. Vintage

    Vintage The Cult of Jib

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    Right.

    The starting DL was supposed to be Spencer, Ratliff, Hatcher, and Ware.

    By my count, that is 2 1st rounders, a 3rd rounder, and a 7th rounder.
    Then, they had an injured 3rd round backup. Another 4th round backup. An UDFA in Bass, and then another 7th rounder in Lissemore. Then, a FA in Hayden.

    By comparison, the cornerbacks have come from a 1st round pick (with a trade up), a FA, a 5th round pick, a 4th round pick, and a FA.
    superpunk likes this.
  6. imbatman

    imbatman New Member

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    All of the starting DL mentioned are over 30. The investments were made a while back. Not a lot has been invested on the DL in recent years.

    Two of those mentioned (the two 1st rounders) were also drafted as OLBs. That is not drafting DLinemen. That is drafting Linebackers. They merely shifted to DL in a different scheme.

    As far as CB goes, Dallas has invested two 1st round picks in the last 6 drafts. They have also invested 4 5th round picks and a 4th during that time. On top of that, they have spent the biggest Blue Chip FA investment in recent years on a CB. They could have instead gone after one of the two Blue Chip Guards.

    I think the two recent 1st round OL picks are a positive step, but I agree with the original thesis that the Cowboys have under-invested in the OL/DL in recent years. By comparison, they have over-invested (in my opinion) at RB, WR, TE and CB. I think you could make an argument for over-investing in OLB too. Fortunately, some of those players are now DLinemen.
  7. jjktkk

    jjktkk Active Member

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    Hey, I like Shiner Beer too!
  8. ThreeandOut

    ThreeandOut Well-Known Member

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    I've yet to hear one convincing argument that the Cowboys undervalue OL. From 2003-9, they drafted Al Johnson, Jacob Rogers, Stephen Peterman, James Marten and Robert Brewster in either the 2-3 rounds. Had the Cowboys only hit on two of these guys, then we're not having all of these discussions about OL problems.
  9. TwoDeep3

    TwoDeep3 Well-Known Member

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    But they didn't hit on two of these. Along with a lot of other draft picks.

    So is it ignoring the lines or just being so poor at drafting them that they stink because of players selected?
  10. jobberone

    jobberone Orangutan for hire; blues and southern rock Staff Member

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    I suspect you know the answer to that.
  11. ThreeandOut

    ThreeandOut Well-Known Member

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    I think it's clearly the latter: they've misevaluated not under valued.
  12. jobberone

    jobberone Orangutan for hire; blues and southern rock Staff Member

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    Not the latter of the former. That's a when did you stop beating your wife question? Plenty of teams miss on players. If you say stink then they stink. How about not evaluating the OL and elsewhere for that matter very well. If you consistently don't draft well then you'll become a mediocre team at best. That's as much the truth or more now as it was in 1995-2000 and beyond.
  13. perrykemp

    perrykemp Well-Known Member

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    Packers have a terrible OL and a just a decent DL -- but not for lack of investment:

    2007 1st Round - Justin Harrel (DT)
    2009 1st Round - BJ Raji (NT)
    2010 1st Round - Bulaga (OT)
    2011 1st Round - Sherrod (OT)
    2012 2nd Round - Worthy (DE)
    2013 1st Round - Datone Jones (DE)

    Their problem isn't the investment -- it's the fact that 3 out of 4 of the most recent guys are out for the season.

    Neither Bulaga or Sherrod had any injury histories in college, however, both have missed the majority of their NFL careers to date due to season ending injuries.

    At the end of the day, luck plays a part in the NFL
  14. Sinister

    Sinister Member

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    I think it pretty clear that moving up to take Claiborne last year was a mistake. They could have dropped down and picked up online and dline or stayed put and picked up dline at the least.
    I'm not saying Claiborne will not be a player, I'm saying they overvalued the depth across both lines last year and it is haunting this team right now.
  15. Ntegrase96

    Ntegrase96 Well-Known Member

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    I somehow missed Mankins, so excuse my prior information. They've drafted 4 OL in the 3rd round or higher. Mankins and Solder were first rounders in '05, and '11 (the same year we drafted Smith). It's not like the Patriots were spending a lot of first rounders on OL. They started a little earlier, but still since 2002 (realignment) they've spent the exact same number of first rounders on OL as we have. And again, even less on OL 3rd round and up. Our guys just didn't pan out (remember we spent a 3rd round on guys like Brewster).

    But yeah. We suck at evaluating OL.
  16. big dog cowboy

    big dog cowboy THE BIG DOG Staff Member

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    Until Claiborne has had a chance to prove himself it's impossible to draw the conclusion you make.

    Moving up to draft Claiborne had nothing to do with the valuation of the depth of our lines. It had everything to do with getting the 2nd highest rated player on their board and a player they thought would be an impact player at his position.
  17. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    I'm sure this has been pointed out, but there are 9 starters in "the trenches". Four of ours are first round picks. One cost us a third (another would be starter cost us a third but was injured) and one cost us a fourth. Oh, and another would be starter is a one time pro bowler. How on earth is that not "building" around the trenches?

    Our lines may or may not be great, but it isn't because of a lack of using resources on the positions. It may, however, have to do with having 3 guys out with injuries without playing a single game yet.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
    jobberone, Idgit and Vanilla2 like this.
  18. Sinister

    Sinister Member

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    The draft is an evaluation of the entire team depth and impact should both be taken into consideration.

    Claiborne may have been drafted for the impact they thought he would make the fact of the matter was the Cowboys had just signed Carr, Jenkins was still on the team and the team also had a good third corner in Scandrick. And let's face it Claiborne was an average cornerback last year he did not have the impact they were hoping for.
    Will Claiborne make the leap we are hoping for? I don't know, but certainly hope so.

    Last years draft was deep in online and dline and I flat out think they made a mistake on draft day.
  19. KB1122

    KB1122 Well-Known Member

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    Investing in the offensive line and making do with a junk bond quarterback has been the franchise strategy for the Kansas City Chiefs for a long time. How has that worked out for them?
  20. coult44

    coult44 Well-Known Member

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    If anyone really thought Rat was going to start we should all question your sanity. I told my friend last year we would never see him again. Perfect example of a guy who QUIT after the payday..Regardless of the reason, he got paid and then NEVER again was the same. He's hurt the BOYZ more than he's ever helped...

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