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What are the responsibilities of Government???

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by Cajuncowboy, May 3, 2004.

  1. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    I don't want to get into a religious debate either, however I will say this, that unless you have a firm grasp on why these cultures have had these wars and such from the beginning it can't be comprehended. Jesus said over 2000 years ago that this would happen and it has happened down through the ages and will until the end. But my beliefs tell me that homosexualaity is a sin and that is what we teach our children. It is not the right of schools to try to undo the values of the home. THey are there to teach not brainwash.
  2. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Just curious...why do you think they are brainwashing instead of teaching?
    I mean they are not making these kids live that life, they are not telling these kids to live that life, and they are not even asking them to lead that lifestyle...they are just educating them that there is a lifestyle.

    Now I can see that you do not want them to learn because you believe that it is a sin and you do not want schools teaching your kids sin....but at the same time to be sheltered behind a wall IMO only makes things worse down the road.

    It is your children, your right, but I would add that as the school teaches these things you as a parent also have the right to explain things to them at home...I am sure you do a fine job doing that because of your faith anyways.
    There also alternatives...your children could goto a christian school and you would be sure that they would not be teaching that lifestyle and at the same time teaching the children the bible and the ways of the christian faith.

    Honestly IMO, and this is not a rip on you or your faith, that churches are the biggest institutions that use brainwash type techniques.

    Think of it this way....if a person never went to church...or even brought up in church...they are taught something that is clearly faith and if they follow the ways of the teachings they create a mindset that no matter what other people say about their faith they will still believe in their faith...no matter how far fetched things may be said....really if you think about it we are talking about someone collapsing a huge wall with faith and a trumpet, we are talking making a sea divide at the raise of a staff until the very floor is dry, we are talking someone turning water into wine, we are talking someone raising the dead...and people believe this with all of their heart.

    If I were to start a religion and have nothing to do with christianity, yet I tell stories of this made up religion and say that this god we worship raised the dead, he seperated the ocean to let my followers walk to saftey, if he took a creek and turned the water to blood...remember this is a religion that I claim to have found and not of the christian bible.......then I would be called crazy and anyone that followed me would be called crazy...they would say that I have brainwashed my followers and that we were nothing more then an occult.

    Ok...I am rambling again...sorry.
  3. CoachParcells

    CoachParcells Benched

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    Nice flame war you got going. :D

    Man, Cajun...just chill. I spoke to God yesterday and he told me to tell you that he stopped worrying about the homo thing a long time ago. He's far more worried about all of the fake Christians running around. Ya know, the 95% majority who call themselves Christians but spend all of their time judging other people, jerking off, thinking up ways to skip church so they can watch football, and fighting for parking spaces at Walmart.

    So when the Christian world gets their act together, they can worry about the rumproasters and carpetmunchers.

    Ya dig?
  4. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    Just a word of advise, when you say "I spoke to God and He said..." if he really didn't you bring condemnation on yourself. That is scriptual and you may or may not be a Christian but the fact stays the same.
  5. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    As far as the stories that you may see as far fetched is concerned, let me just say this and you can choose to believe this or not however I have seen twisted limbs straigtend, Fevers reduced instantaneously and broken bones healed in a matter of seconds all before my eyes as I have preyed for people. Those stories you speak of that seem far fetched to you are not only plausible to me but very likely.
  6. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    I think you missed my point.....I was talking about someone outside of your faith would find it far fetched....just as if I were to say to you that I belong to another religion and gave you stories like that.....if it were not of the same god you followed would you consider me crazy or the stories far fetched?

    An example...

    Say I am a hindu and I tell you that my gods are the only gods to follow and that the christian god is nothing but a myth and it is wrong to follow it.
    If I were to tell you that I seen a person healed by rubbing the dung from a sacred cow on the persons forehead.
    If a person that was blind could now see because they took the urine from a sacred cow and splashed it in his eyes.
    If a person could not walk but he ate the droppings from a sacred cow.

    Now these people would swear to see these things and no matter what yousay they will beleive it ...would you think they were a tad crazy or brainwashed?

    Once again this is not ripping on the religion...it is to show how things may appear to others of another religion...how one religion may find another crazy to believe in such far fetched ideas..but at the same time many of their own stories or ideas may seem far fetched to the other group.

    Not sure if I am really expressing what I mean.
  7. BulletBob

    BulletBob The Godfather

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    Sorry, Brain, on this point, I have to break ranks. In order to judge what is right and wrong, most people rely on their past experience (upbringing) and conscience. For most, religion is forever intertwined with both of these things.

    As far as forcing morality down one's throat, we do it every day in Congress. It is called law-making. We, as a society, define what is right and wrong every day, and "force it down people's throats" because these debates often yield the laws of the land. How do we determine right from wrong? By the ethics we collectively hold. And whether popular or not, whether right or wrong, our sense of ethics as a nation was born from a Judeo-Christian experience.

    We really cannot avoid judging people, or standing up for what is right, if we have a strong set of ethics. "Live and let live" is not the law in this country (as much as some would like it to be).

    If you perceive something to be gravely wrong, then I would argue that you have a responsibility to act to right that wrong. It's in how you do it that's the rub. "In your face preaching", "thinking you are better than someone", or "outright negative complaining without offering a solution" are all ineffective ways to right the wrong (in my humble opinion). The best way to affect change is to debate the issue logically and try to have your opposition come to the "morally correct" conclusion on their own.

    ... now you've got me rambling.
  8. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    I am not one that has a fondness for most organized religions.

    We will just have to agree to disagree in some areas. :cool:
  9. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    I have to strongly disagree with what you just wrote. I think laws should be made based on the ideas of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and not the ideas expressed in the Bible. The Bible is a guide to how you are supposed to live your life; it is not a guide on how to rule everyone else in the country based on your interpretation of the book.
  10. BulletBob

    BulletBob The Godfather

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    Ummm ... where did I mention the Bible?

    I simply stated that our laws are based upon ethics. A majority of those ethics happen to be based in a Judeo-Christian experience. Right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are all ethics issues.

    I am not suggesting that the Bible be used as a guide for any law-making. Only that we cannot escape the fact that our country was founded on ethics based upon a commonly held religious experience. The influence of religion on the founding of our country and in our every day laws cannot be denied, nor can it be avoided ... at least in the short term. Our laws are written and debated by a majority of people who hold religion as a guiding principle in determining right from wrong.

    I am also not suggesting that religion is the only source for determining what is right vs. what is wrong. Brain, though not a fan of organized religion, has a very strong sense of right vs wrong. As is Eric, who is an athiest. I am merely stating that unless there is a radical shift in the makeup of our country, our laws will continue to be established from a code of ethics which ultimately trace their way back to a Judeo-Christian teaching.
  11. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    I'm not sure how you can say that the right to liberty and the right to pursue happiness are Judeo-Christian values. Historically, (when countries were ruled by Christian kings) these values were not taught and were not important. Most Christian denominations still do not teach these values.
  12. adbutcher

    adbutcher K9NME

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    You are so correct sir and I agree 100%.
  13. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    Here is where I most point out the fly in the ointment in your argument. Those rulers that claimed to be Christian and did not hold fast to the tenent of the teachings of Christ were not Christians. Jesus said "You will know them by their fruits." meaning you will know a Christian by their actions. Also, I would not condem an entire religion based on a few, just as I do not condem muslims based on a few nut jobs. There are very nice and moral living muslims just as there are those from every religion. The problem inherent in your argument is that the Christian values are not taught by the Chriatian church today. Primarily they are but you can find some places where it is not.
  14. BulletBob

    BulletBob The Godfather

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    Alt, first of all you conveniently left out the right to life, which is central to any Christian teaching. Secondly, I'm not sure what Christian denominations to which you are referring when you say that most do not teach the right to liberty and to pursue happiness. Just about every time the Pope speaks out on global events, he addresses human rights issues, particularly freedom. I know that this is only the Catholic denomination, but it's a pretty big one in the Christian religion. I know the Catholic Church has its flaws (and believe me, I do not want to open this thread up into a Catholic-bashing thread; trust me, you don't want to be subjected to my endless rants in defense of the Church), both present and historical, but to say it does not teach the right to liberty is an incorrect perception.

    Finally, I'd be really interested in your theory of how "most Christian denominations" do not espouse the right to pursue happiness (keeping in mind that this is perhaps the most subjective of the three Declaration principles).
  15. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    I'm not trying to condemn an entire religion. I am simply stating that our rights and laws should be based on the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Laws should not be based on the moral teachings of a religion. A good example are laws that prevent people from buying beer on Sunday. This law is based purely on religious morality. A person buying beer on Sunday does not violate another person's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In this example, the Christian values actually are in conflict with the values set forth in the Constitution.
  16. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    I didn't "conveniently" leave out the right to life. I simply made the argument that the right to liberty and the right to pursue happiness were not Christian values. I didn't make the argument for the right to life, because I believe that this is a Christian value. Liberty and the right to pursue happiness are rights that can be potentially harmful to yourself or your afterlife. The rights refer to your ability to do anything you want as long as it does not interfere with another person's rights. Religious organizations (such as the religious right) typically try to get laws passed that restrict immoral behavior. This behavior that they are trying to restrict rarely hurt anyone but the person or people who are participating in that behavior. These organizations also get laws passed that do not hurt anyone - such as the law making the sale of beer illegal on Sunday. This law is purely based on religion and IMO violate the rights of those of us who do not believe as they do.
  17. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    You are wrong. Laws that prohibit the sale of beer on Sunday are not based on religious beliefs. Those laws are voted on by the local people. They are not something thta religion mandates. Personally I don't have a problem with selling beer on Sunday or any other day of the week. I personally don't drink any longer but that is my call. The laws that you speak of are based on the decisons of the majority of a populous. If what you are saying is true then they would prohibit the sale of beer altogether.
  18. Eric_Boyer

    Eric_Boyer Well-Known Member

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    And voters back it based on religious belief.

    Let's not rewrite history.

    Temperance advocates, for example, founded the Scientific Temperance Journal after the Civil War. Schoolchildren's textbooks depicted human organs degenerating from an overabundance of drink. In the 1870s, the Women's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) promoted the use of public education for the cause of temperance. They succeeded in getting their propaganda in textbooks and, by 1902, every state and territory except Arizona had a law requiring temperance instruction in the schools.

    AND

    The following is from www.u-s-history.com


    Puritan church members in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, and later Congregationalists elsewhere in New England, believed their relationship with God required them to enforce proper behavior.

    Blue law refers to an edict regulating public activities on the Sabbath, which meant Sunday to the Congregationalists of the time.

    All forms of trade or commerce were outlawed on Sundays. No public entertainment or meetings were permitted, excepted church services. Even travel was banned.
  19. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    Exactly! What other possible reason could there be for passing laws prohibiting people from doing things on Sunday?
  20. BulletBob

    BulletBob The Godfather

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    Alt, I understand your point about beer on Sunday, and I even agree in this case that the law is pretty silly.

    That being said, I am not sure I understand your view about what the Christian Churches are (and have been) teaching. Based on your statement above in bold-face type, the Church does not embrace the right to pursue happiness or liberty because an individual might step out of line and not make it to Heaven. Is that what you meant? If it is, you'll need to help me out on which churches are teaching that we should encourage slavery and live an austere life devoid of happiness, lest we sin. Outside of a few Amish sects here in Pennsylvania, I'm not sure the idea is that widespread.

    Just to tie the two ideas together, my favorite quote, by the way, from Ben Franklin is:
    "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." :D

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