Turning from tanking

[Diehardblues]

Let me caution the Lawrenceheads a little. Before you go thinking he's can't miss and the next Manning or Luck, check him against Bama in the CFP game and how they set up their pro style D to confuse and frustrate him. He's great at the college level but so are a lot of college players that fizzle at the next level.

You cannot forget the "team rule" when drafting players. That's the mistake they made with Claiborne and Spears, they weren't the best players on their own college D and neither was that good in the NFL. Lawrence and Fields are surrounded by 4-5 star recruits and top level D's. Lawrence has had excellent coaching and has been playing with the next Dalvin Cook at RB.

Yep

The biggest difference is most of the great talents in college go to great college programs surrounded by solid talent and coaching.

They are usually drafted by horrid teams in the NFL if they are a top draft pick. And why the higher they’re drafted the more likely a bust simply as a result of the team they go to.

The exceptions are teams that quickly surround them without enough talent or had talent in place just needed a QB. Like we are seeing in Miami, Cleve and Buffalo for example. I’d include the Rams a couple years ago.

Look what Dak walked into. Even Mahomes. They were already playoff teams. Same with Jackson.

 

[Rockport]

Most reasonable fans won’t take any joy from having a horrible team that wins the NFCE and gets embarrassed in their first playoff game. Winning the NFCE would only mean that the Cowboys stink just a little less than the rest of the garbage teams in the conference. Is reaching the playoffs with a terrible team worth sacrificing top draft picks? Would that playoff blowout loss help the team long term like drafting the best players in the draft?

What are you Karnak or something? You don’t know that they’re going to lose in the 1st round if they make. You just hope they do.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

All wins do is drop the team in draft position. They hurt the team. That simple. NO other way to look at it.

Not if it makes the team used to and more accepting of losing e.g. You're putting the higher draft position off all by itself, as if it nothing else matters. No, it's not that simple.

For an example, say Dallas wants player X, who's widely considered to be available at the 3rd pick. But Dallas wins a few more games and gets kicked to no. 10, and player X is taken by the Giants. So the Cowboys take player Y at no 10. By your interpretation that's always bad. But what if player X turns out to be a bust, and player Y turns into a HOF player?
Then that turned out well.

Understanding that it's all supposition, but that's just the point. It's NOT as simple as we need to lose to get no 3 because lesser picks have a lesser chance of being great, it's that things can, and do, happen.

But why argue? If you can't understand other views, there's nothing we can do about that, you'd have to do it. And you've already said you "don't understand". Maybe more of "won't" understand. I do understand your view, thank goodness for that.

It's obvious we're never going to agree. That's cool...

 

[LACowboysFan1]

i hope dalton is given a short leash. if he screws up, sit him and bring in gilbert.

Doubt it, after all Jerry (I think it was him) said when they got Dalton he was the best backup in the league, we all know JJ hates to be wrong, or thought of as making a mistake. Of course if it gets really bad, like 3 games in a row where Dalton throws 3 picks and the Cowboys put on a good defensive effort and lose all 3 games by like 21-17 or such, we might see Gilbert....

 

[jnday]

I agree but we don’t appear interested in a QB. We appear all in on Dak according to reports and statement from our dysfunctional ownership.

And I don’t think we’ll get either of those slots regardless. Everyone can root for it all they want.

Jerry or any other owner would not come out and say that they value another QB more than their starter until the opportunity came along to draft the replacement. Jerry is too good of a businessman to pass on Lawrence if he has the opportunity to draft him. Jerry probably doesn’t think that he has a realistic chance of drafting him so there is no need to create a rift over something that probably won’t happen. Lawrence would be like striking gold from a business viewpoint.

 

[Diehardblues]

And that has little to no value to Booger as he uses the movement of inventory to raise ticket prices.

I understand but I was responding to a poster who obviously didn’t realize that hosting playoffs games isn’t the windfall of revenue he thought it was. Probably wasn’t aware of the unusual revenue sharing for playoff games compared to regular season.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Jerry or any other owner would not come out and say that they value another QB more than their starter until the opportunity came along to draft the replacement. Jerry is too good of a businessman to pass on Lawrence if he has the opportunity to draft him. Jerry probably doesn’t think that he has a realistic chance of drafting him so there is no need to create a rift over something that probably won’t happen. Lawrence would be like striking gold from a business viewpoint.

At this point who gets the no. 1 pick is still up in the air. Jets are awful, Chargers are the only team they face with a losing record, everybody else is way above .500 and in the running for the playoffs, especially if it goes to 16 teams. So unless Lawrence says he'll stay in school if the Jets have the no. 1, it'll likely drop to the Jags, Jags also have a schedule with only 1 under .500 team.

Cowboys could also trade up, if they are at no. 3, of course.

We'll know more in a couple of weeks, wouldn't be surprised if the Giants or Jags win a couple more games each, especially the Giants since they have division games left.

Stay tuned, folks!

 

[kskboys]

Not if it makes the team used to and more accepting of losing e.g. You're putting the higher draft position off all by itself, as if it nothing else matters. No, it's not that simple.

For an example, say Dallas wants player X, who's widely considered to be available at the 3rd pick. But Dallas wins a few more games and gets kicked to no. 10, and player X is taken by the Giants. So the Cowboys take player Y at no 10. By your interpretation that's always bad. But what if player X turns out to be a bust, and player Y turns into a HOF player?
Then that turned out well.

Understanding that it's all supposition, but that's just the point. It's NOT as simple as we need to lose to get no 3 because lesser picks have a lesser chance of being great, it's that things can, and do, happen.

But why argue? If you can't understand other views, there's nothing we can do about that, you'd have to do it. And you've already said you "don't understand". Maybe more of "won't" understand. I do understand your view, thank goodness for that.

It's obvious we're never going to agree. That's cool...

So you want to draft later in the draft just in case a player busts? Chase Young is the same prospect as Chaisson?

 

[LACowboysFan1]

So you want to draft later in the draft just in case a player busts? Chase Young is the same prospect as Chaisson?

Oh for goodness sakes, of course not. I was just giving an example where if you don't get as high a pick as you want it's not automatically bad. You totally missed my point, I wasn't trying to justify any course of action in particular, just noting that a lower draft pick can still work out for the good of the team.

Spouting off absolutes is silly, the NFL is far too complicated for that....

 

[garyo1954]

So the best teams in the league are the teams that draft high most often? Like the Cowboys who have had 5 top ten picks since 2000? The more you pick in the upper 1/3 of the draft the better team you'll have?

Here's the reality. If the teams with the most top ten picks were the best teams, the standings would look like this......(Washington has 9 top tens since 2000. The had 2 top tens in 2000.)

Washington 9, 2020, 2nd, (2) 2000
NY Giants 6, 2020, 4th
Dallas 5, 2016, 4th
Philadephia 3, 2016, 2nd

Detroit 12, 2020 3rd
Chicago 7, 2018, 8th
Minnesota 6, 2014 9th
Green Bay 3, 2009 9th

Tampa Bay 7, 2019, 5th
Atlanta 7, 2015 8th
Carolina 6, 2020 7th
NO Saints 3, 2008 7th

Arizona 11, 2020, 8th
SF 49ers 8, 2019, 2nd
LA Rams, 7, 2016, 1st
Seattle 3, 2010, 6th

LV 9, 2019, 4th
KC 6, 2017, 10th
LA Char 6, 2020, 6th
Denver 2, 2018, 5th

Cleveland 13, 2020, 10th, (2) 2018
Cincinnati 9, 2020, 1st
Baltimore 3, 2016, 6th
Pittsburgh 2, 2019, 10th

NY Jets 9, 2019, 3rd
Buffalo 8, 2019, 9th
Miami 6, 2020, 5th
NE Pats 2, 2008, 10th

Jacksonville 15, 2020, 9th
Tennessee 7, 2017, 5th
Houston 6, 2014, 1st
Indianapolis 2, 2018, 6th

Looks like historically the best teams in the league are picking later, not earlier in the draft.

 

[CouchCoach]

Not if it makes the team used to and more accepting of losing e.g. You're putting the higher draft position off all by itself, as if it nothing else matters. No, it's not that simple.

For an example, say Dallas wants player X, who's widely considered to be available at the 3rd pick. But Dallas wins a few more games and gets kicked to no. 10, and player X is taken by the Giants. So the Cowboys take player Y at no 10. By your interpretation that's always bad. But what if player X turns out to be a bust, and player Y turns into a HOF player?
Then that turned out well.

Understanding that it's all supposition, but that's just the point. It's NOT as simple as we need to lose to get no 3 because lesser picks have a lesser chance of being great, it's that things can, and do, happen.

But why argue? If you can't understand other views, there's nothing we can do about that, you'd have to do it. And you've already said you "don't understand". Maybe more of "won't" understand. I do understand your view, thank goodness for that.

It's obvious we're never going to agree. That's cool...

Prime example of this was when Parcells was here, he was already to take Shawn Andrews in the 1st and PHL jumped the Cowboys and took him. He was a total bust because of injuries.

 

[buybuydandavis]

 

[CowboyRoy]

Not if it makes the team used to and more accepting of losing e.g. You're putting the higher draft position off all by itself, as if it nothing else matters. No, it's not that simple.

For an example, say Dallas wants player X, who's widely considered to be available at the 3rd pick. But Dallas wins a few more games and gets kicked to no. 10, and player X is taken by the Giants. So the Cowboys take player Y at no 10. By your interpretation that's always bad. But what if player X turns out to be a bust, and player Y turns into a HOF player?
Then that turned out well.

Understanding that it's all supposition, but that's just the point. It's NOT as simple as we need to lose to get no 3 because lesser picks have a lesser chance of being great, it's that things can, and do, happen.

But why argue? If you can't understand other views, there's nothing we can do about that, you'd have to do it. And you've already said you "don't understand". Maybe more of "won't" understand. I do understand your view, thank goodness for that.

It's obvious we're never going to agree. That's cool...

Losing mentality? Thats just some excuse theory that guys like you make up so you can justify waving your pom poms. You think Dak, MM, the coaching staff is going to accept losing? If your not good enough to win, thats just the way it is.

It will all be forgotten during the offseason when 1/3 of the starters get replaced and they bring in a load of high draft picks to replenish the team. Like every other year, the Cowboys players will all be cocky and pumped thinking they are going to the SB.

Do you think the Golden State Warriors think they are losers now because half the team got injured and they wound up with the 2nd pick in the draft? That team has prime draft capital now. It probably the best thing that could have happened to them if they werent going to win it all. They needed a slight push in a minor rebuild.

Im sure GS fans are educated enough that they were all hoping for the team to lose every game.

So do you recall David Robinson getting hurt one year and the Spurs tumbling all the way down to the 1st pick in the draft and adding Tim Duncan and a Dynasty was born?

There are things much more important than your short term personal pride on Sundays. Is your ego that fragile that you cant handle 7 more losses?

Now if we had a young rookie QB was playing and he needed to learn how to win, then that would be different.

 

[starfan1]

Losing mentality? Thats just some excuse theory that guys like you make up so you can justify waving your pom poms. You think Dak, MM, the coaching staff is going to accept losing? If your not good enough to win, thats just the way it is.

It will all be forgotten during the offseason when 1/3 of the starters get replaced and they bring in a load of high draft picks to replenish the team. Like every other year, the Cowboys players will all be cocky and pumped thinking they are going to the SB.

Do you think the Golden State Warriors think they are losers now because half the team got injured and they wound up with the 2nd pick in the draft? That team has prime draft capital now. It probably the best thing that could have happened to them if they werent going to win it all. They needed a slight push in a minor rebuild.

Im sure GS fans are educated enough that they were all hoping for the team to lose every game.

So do you recall David Robinson getting hurt one year and the Spurs tumbling all the way down to the 1st pick in the draft and adding Tim Duncan and a Dynasty was born?

There are things much more important than your short term personal pride on Sundays. Is your ego that fragile that you cant handle 7 more losses?

Now if we had a young rookie QB was playing and he needed to learn how to win, then that would be different.

I dont know that basketball is the best analogy as its a sport that is not as dependent on the whole team structure. That being said it was a good argument and you get a like just for effort

 

[Runwildboys]

So the best teams in the league are the teams that draft high most often? Like the Cowboys who have had 5 top ten picks since 2000? The more you pick in the upper 1/3 of the draft the better team you'll have?

Here's the reality. If the teams with the most top ten picks were the best teams, the standings would look like this......(Washington has 9 top tens since 2000. The had 2 top tens in 2000.)

Washington 9, 2020, 2nd, (2) 2000
NY Giants 6, 2020, 4th
Dallas 5, 2016, 4th
Philadephia 3, 2016, 2nd

Detroit 12, 2020 3rd
Chicago 7, 2018, 8th
Minnesota 6, 2014 9th
Green Bay 3, 2009 9th

Tampa Bay 7, 2019, 5th
Atlanta 7, 2015 8th
Carolina 6, 2020 7th
NO Saints 3, 2008 7th

Arizona 11, 2020, 8th
SF 49ers 8, 2019, 2nd
LA Rams, 7, 2016, 1st
Seattle 3, 2010, 6th

LV 9, 2019, 4th
KC 6, 2017, 10th
LA Char 6, 2020, 6th
Denver 2, 2018, 5th

Cleveland 13, 2020, 10th, (2) 2018
Cincinnati 9, 2020, 1st
Baltimore 3, 2016, 6th
Pittsburgh 2, 2019, 10th

NY Jets 9, 2019, 3rd
Buffalo 8, 2019, 9th
Miami 6, 2020, 5th
NE Pats 2, 2008, 10th

Jacksonville 15, 2020, 9th
Tennessee 7, 2017, 5th
Houston 6, 2014, 1st
Indianapolis 2, 2018, 6th

Looks like historically the best teams in the league are picking later, not earlier in the draft.

Because they were already good, which is why they were picking later.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Losing mentality? Thats just some excuse theory that guys like you make up so you can justify waving your pom poms. You think Dak, MM, the coaching staff is going to accept losing? If your not good enough to win, thats just the way it is.

It will all be forgotten during the offseason when 1/3 of the starters get replaced and they bring in a load of high draft picks to replenish the team. Like every other year, the Cowboys players will all be cocky and pumped thinking they are going to the SB.

Do you think the Golden State Warriors think they are losers now because half the team got injured and they wound up with the 2nd pick in the draft? That team has prime draft capital now. It probably the best thing that could have happened to them if they werent going to win it all. They needed a slight push in a minor rebuild.

Im sure GS fans are educated enough that they were all hoping for the team to lose every game.

So do you recall David Robinson getting hurt one year and the Spurs tumbling all the way down to the 1st pick in the draft and adding Tim Duncan and a Dynasty was born?

There are things much more important than your short term personal pride on Sundays. Is your ego that fragile that you cant handle 7 more losses?

Now if we had a young rookie QB was playing and he needed to learn how to win, then that would be different.

First of all it's not an excuse theory, and second I didn't make it up.

All I'm saying is you can have a lower draft pick and it will still turn out good. Your view is that you have to have to tank so you can get the higher draft pick because that's the best way to improve the team. That CAN WORK, but it's not guaranteed. If the Cowboys don't tank then that has it's own advantages, which clearly you don't see, or don't agree with.

At this point it comes down to this - if you can't, or won't, see my view then just say so and we'll end this conversation. I like discussions, but if someone's not willing to admit they could be wrong then there's no discussion anymore....

 

[CowboyRoy]

First of all it's not an excuse theory, and second I didn't make it up.

All I'm saying is you can have a lower draft pick and it will still turn out good. Your view is that you have to have to tank so you can get the higher draft pick because that's the best way to improve the team. That CAN WORK, but it's not guaranteed. If the Cowboys don't tank then that has it's own advantages, which clearly you don't see, or don't agree with.

At this point it comes down to this - if you can't, or won't, see my view then just say so and we'll end this conversation. I like discussions, but if someone's not willing to admit they could be wrong then there's no discussion anymore....

In this case I see NO benefit to winning. Its not like we have a young squad learning how to win or a young QB or Dak trying to salvage a season. This just a Dalton lead team where 1/3 of the roster isnt going to even be here.

Its not about "tanking", which is a ridiculous term. No one expects the players or coaches to try and lose. But its about fans hoping they lose and what you want to happen on Sundays. What would actually be best for this team short and long term. And that is 100% getting as high a pick as possible.

Who said anything about guarantees? I dont see how that has to do with anything. Higher picks give you a better chance and getting into the top3 gives you big time trade value for teams trading up for a QB.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

In this case I see NO benefit to winning. Its not like we have a young squad learning how to win or a young QB or Dak trying to salvage a season. This just a Dalton lead team where 1/3 of the roster isnt going to even be here.

Its not about "tanking", which is a ridiculous term. No one expects the players or coaches to try and lose. But its about fans hoping they lose and what you want to happen on Sundays. What would actually be best for this team short and long term. And that is 100% getting as high a pick as possible.

Who said anything about guarantees? I dont see how that has to do with anything. Higher picks give you a better chance and getting into the top3 gives you big time trade value for teams trading up for a QB.

If you can't see it, then I can't make you. Obviously you have no desire to discuss, just pound on your view. That's not respecting my opinion/view and that I have no tolerance for.

Good day, sir...

 

[CouchCoach]

First of all it's not an excuse theory, and second I didn't make it up.

All I'm saying is you can have a lower draft pick and it will still turn out good. Your view is that you have to have to tank so you can get the higher draft pick because that's the best way to improve the team. That CAN WORK, but it's not guaranteed. If the Cowboys don't tank then that has it's own advantages, which clearly you don't see, or don't agree with.

At this point it comes down to this - if you can't, or won't, see my view then just say so and we'll end this conversation. I like discussions, but if someone's not willing to admit they could be wrong then there's no discussion anymore....

You'd love discussing with me as I start every post with "I could be wrong but......",

Not winning totally negates the real part of the team, the coaches and players. Anyone think they want to play for a higher draft pick?

There are some fans and I would wager, management, coaches and players, that think this team's woes are owing to injuries more than anything else. They've been missing critical pieces of the OL and D all season long not to mention 4 different QB's in 5 games, what teams easily overcome that?

Yes, they only have 2 wins and yes the division leader only has 3 and while we see that as a horrible division, they see the chance to win it and make the playoffs and if any fan here can't see the effect of that on this coaching staff and players, I can't help you.

You've got Lawrence, the usual spokesperson for fans sticking things in the team, speaking up because he thinks he's on a better team and he has quietly been one of the players with no reason to back up to a game check, the man has come to play in every game. Pride matters and they're playing to regain theirs.

Some here want them to wait for next season to redeem themselves and from what I saw on that field in the last two games is a team seeking that this season. Oh, I know, some will discount winning the East this year but I will not. They're in 4th place in a horrible year for this division, the worst ever, but if they can win it, that will do more for winning next season than a higher draft pick.

Being the best of the worst matters and if you were on that team, you would feel the same way.

 

[CowboyRoy]

If you can't see it, then I can't make you. Obviously you have no desire to discuss, just pound on your view. That's not respecting my opinion/view and that I have no tolerance for.

Good day, sir...

Im not sure what you expect me to say. I COMPLETELY dont get or understand your side of the argument. I believe getting a top 3 picks far out ways your side.

What is it that you are hoping for exaclty? 3 or 4 more wins? Is that really going to "teach them to win"?

Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Seems like a fan that just wants to wave his pom poms on Sunday and doesnt really care about whats best for the team.