How do fans determine whether it’s the QB or team holding them back?

[blueblood70]

If any player gets better, the team gets better. Dak has been a better QB than the defense has been a defense since Dak joined the team.

But in a capped league, "who is holding the team back" is more than who plays better, it's a question of bang for your buck.

On his rookie contract, Dak was probably the best value proposition in the league. Far from holding us back, his cheap contract kept got us to the playoffs 2/4 years instead of entirely cratering as we ate dead money on Tony and bad contracts like Dez and Terrance.

At 40mil, is Dak still a value proposition? I doubt it. I consider Dak in the top 6-10 QBs. It's not his play. It's the value for cap dollar I doubt. I think the QB market is a bubble.

This doesn't change just because the defense stinks and is a worse value proposition. A bad contract isn't justified because we have worse contracts on the team, or signed worse contracts in the past.

(But if the cap balloons, 40mil for Dak could be cheap. DLaw's contract could look better too. They're very good players. Our best besides Martin. Cooper is up there too. Collins. Tyron is a better player when healthy, but that hasn't been so often.)

good thoughts and i agree with most of it.

 

[Diehardblues]

Dak isn’t holding us back. The team is.

I just wish he didn’t want so much money that we lose almost all hope of a super bowl.

It’s not just that his contract will be bad it’s the several other bad deals we have.

Definitely several contributing factors holding us back. I’m not sure over paying Dak will be the deciding factor.

But that’s not my intention of this thread.

it’s to look at other situations in comparison.

 

[Corso]

Dak isn’t holding us back. The team is.

I just wish he didn’t want so much money that we lose almost all hope of a super bowl.

It’s not just that his contract will be bad it’s the several other bad deals we have.

Even when they had money they couldn't get it together.
This a truly damned if you do, damned if you don't ordeal and it's not going to get any better.
So batter your drum to death.
I'll chalk it up to therapy.

 

[CouchCoach]

There is only one position that has a W-L record in the NFL. Do you think that at least Earnest Byner deserves a L for fumbling away that playoff game to DEN?

There is really no way to measure QB to QB unless they play under the exact same circumstances with the same team, which isn't possible.

I watch QB's play and assess their skill set, particularly under pressure, and decide whether that's a QB that could make a good team better. He can only help the defense by not making mistakes that put them with the short field to defend. He can also score so much he takes the opposition out of their game plan.

If we're talking about Prescott, and when aren't we, I have little doubt he could take a good team to the Big Dance. I have felt that way about Stafford and feel they're the favorite now to represent the NFC. I felt the Patriots were actually a better team, even missing the key pieces, than the QB. HOU has a better QB than the team.

Give me the choice of an elite QB or elite D and I'll take the D 10 times out of 10. An average QB like McMahon, Dilfer or Johnson can be elevated by a great D. You take the elite D down to an average one from Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman and Tom Brady and how many rings now?

 

[JoeKing]

Fans watch the game and by doing that the truth is revealed.

 

[Corso]

Fans watch the game and by doing that the truth is revealed.

No matter how ignorant the eye.

 

[Ranched]

"How do fans determine whether it’s the QB or team holding them back?"

This fan has determined it's neither. Coaching has been Dallas's biggest downfall. They haven't (Parcels, Switzer, Campo, Garrett, Gailey, Phillips) had a decent HC since Johnson. Switzer won w/Jimmy's team, 1995.

2020
-1995
--------------
25 years BOOM!​

 

[Bluechillychild]

If Jimmy G can make the Super Bowl, Dak can. What we really need is some extra picks for our defense. Please check out some of my other posts for strategies on how to better our defense.

 

[McKDaddy]

Here's one of each.

Titans pre Tannehill
Marino & Dolphins

 

[bewp7]

see: dak when zeke got suspended, dak before amari got traded

or dak when amari is hurt...basicly look at dak when ever he is not playing with every thing stack in his favor on offense and it isnt 100% “dak friendly”

 

[Hardline]

We have one more guaranteed season with Dak.
We will see what he can do with a healthy OL and an improved defense.

 

[Corso]

There’s many fans who appear to be divided on whether it’s our QB or defense holding us back from more success. And it’s a fair argument .

Im curious how fans determine these factors. I mean how do they know for a fact if a team is struggling to go further in the playoffs, etc is because of their QB or other contributing factors.

We know good QB’s can be on bad teams and bad QB’s can be on good teams. I’d be curious of some of the examples out there where bad QB’s are holding back good teams and bad teams are holding back good QB’s.

In a flawed manner and in a simplistic manner. It's synergistically both and that comes from the top.
It's frustrating, trying to be on the outside looking in, yet not being able to sway the simple minds in any direction whatsoever.

So I gave up. This isn't worth fighting over.

 

[5Stars]

In a flawed manner and in a simplistic manner. It's synergistically both and that comes from the top.
It's frustrating, trying to be on the outside looking in, yet not being able to sway the simple minds in any direction whatsoever.

So I gave up. This isn't worth fighting over.

lol...you are going to confuse people, they don't no them words.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

There’s many fans who appear to be divided on whether it’s our QB or defense holding us back from more success. And it’s a fair argument .

Im curious how fans determine these factors. I mean how do they know for a fact if a team is struggling to go further in the playoffs, etc is because of their QB or other contributing factors.

We know good QB’s can be on bad teams and bad QB’s can be on good teams. I’d be curious of some of the examples out there where bad QB’s are holding back good teams and bad teams are holding back good QB’s.

Ok, let me make it simple. in the first 4 games, playing against 3 playoff teams, we were giving up 36+ points a game. that's worst in NFL history....that's 50+ years of football. when you give 200,200, 200, 296, 300 yards rushing to opposing teams, your defense sucks. its the defense.

 

[Diehardblues]

Ok, let me make it simple. in the first 4 games, playing against 3 playoff teams, we were giving up 36+ points a game. that's worst in NFL history....that's 50+ years of football. when you give 200,200, 200, 296, 300 yards rushing to opposing teams, your defense sucks. its the defense.

I think we’ve exhausted these discussions on Dak and the Cowboys. I was looking for comparisons from other teams and QB’s.

 

[Diehardblues]

Here's one of each.

Titans pre Tannehill
Marino & Dolphins

Good examples

 

[Diehardblues]

If Jimmy G can make the Super Bowl, Dak can. What we really need is some extra picks for our defense. Please check out some of my other posts for strategies on how to better our defense.

Jimmy G and 49ers a good example.

 

[Diehardblues]

"How do fans determine whether it’s the QB or team holding them back?"

This fan has determined it's neither. Coaching has been Dallas's biggest downfall. They haven't (Parcels, Switzer, Campo, Garrett, Gailey, Phillips) had a decent HC since Johnson. Switzer won w/Jimmy's team, 1995.

2020
-1995
--------------
25 years BOOM!​

The lack of great coaching is definitely a core issue. The cause of why we haven’t had a good enough team isn’t the examples I was looking for though. Thanks

 

[Diehardblues]

There is only one position that has a W-L record in the NFL. Do you think that at least Earnest Byner deserves a L for fumbling away that playoff game to DEN?

There is really no way to measure QB to QB unless they play under the exact same circumstances with the same team, which isn't possible.

I watch QB's play and assess their skill set, particularly under pressure, and decide whether that's a QB that could make a good team better. He can only help the defense by not making mistakes that put them with the short field to defend. He can also score so much he takes the opposition out of their game plan.

If we're talking about Prescott, and when aren't we, I have little doubt he could take a good team to the Big Dance. I have felt that way about Stafford and feel they're the favorite now to represent the NFC. I felt the Patriots were actually a better team, even missing the key pieces, than the QB. HOU has a better QB than the team.

Give me the choice of an elite QB or elite D and I'll take the D 10 times out of 10. An average QB like McMahon, Dilfer or Johnson can be elevated by a great D. You take the elite D down to an average one from Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman and Tom Brady and how many rings now?

I agree with your basis here but we can compare QB’s similar circumstances. It doesn’t have to be an exact science.

And this wasn’t intended to be about Dak. But rather to open up thoughts how QB’s aren’t always directly responsible for the success of the team.

There have been good QB’s on bad teams and bad QB’s on good teams. I’m just trying to provide a comparative perspective.

 

[Irvin88_4life]

The Bears might be good example of great defenses without a good QB. Any others?

Texans for years had great defenses without a QB.

Bears have a good defense no doubt but they also put resources into that side of the ball. Trubisky gets a lot of blame but what weapons does he really have? Plus Nagy just isn't good with the offense and it can be said that the offense has taken a step back