13 Reasons Why

[Galian Beast]

Did anyone else watch this? What did you think?

 

[Kevinicus]

From just a narrative perspective, I thought it was fairly stupid and drawn out. The characters didn't seem to act in a realistic way.

Other than that, I thought the show had some poor messages (that weren't necessarily intentional).

I would not recommend it.

 

[mattjames2010]

I thought it was quite awful - can't bring myself to watch kids going through an existential crisis, sometimes over petty things. The whole aspect of "I'm going to make 13 tapes to guilt-trip before I commit suicide" was hardly, in any way, realistic. I understood the message, it just didn't come across well. Maybe the book is better.

Honestly, I'll just recommend Perks of Being a Wallflower which has similar themes, but executed better.

 

[JackOfNoTrades]

My wife is a HS Guidance Counselor and this production has and is having a negative reaction/impact on students. It's one thing to cover real topics in life but to glamorize such a final decision upon an audience who haven't yet developed coping mechanisms is troubling. Fortunately nothing tragic as a result but has brought a whole new level of unexpected workload, amongst other evolving social service demands, on public schools who are already underwater now dealing with matters other than educating.

 

[yimyammer]

Side bar: does anyone know why some threads in the section can be "liked" and others cannot?

 

[Galian Beast]

From just a narrative perspective, I thought it was fairly stupid and drawn out. The characters didn't seem to act in a realistic way.

Other than that, I thought the show had some poor messages (that weren't necessarily intentional).

I would not recommend it.

Expand on that if you would. How do you feel it was stupid and drawn out? The characters acted unrealistically? How so? I think you had people act like 16 and 17 year old kids...

You have a player on the Cowboys who gave up millions of dollars after failing 7 drug tests for marijuana... I mean... life is complex.

I don't think it had a poor message at all, but that's just me. Strongly recommend it.

 

[Galian Beast]

I thought it was quite awful - can't bring myself to watch kids going through an existential crisis, sometimes over petty things. The whole aspect of "I'm going to make 13 tapes to guilt-trip before I commit suicide" was hardly, in any way, realistic. I understood the message, it just didn't come across well. Maybe the book is better.

Honestly, I'll just recommend Perks of Being a Wallflower which has similar themes, but executed better.

Not sure if you watched it all, but it certainly wasn't all petty, nor do I think it glamorized anything.

 

[Galian Beast]

My wife is a HS Guidance Counselor and this production has and is having a negative reaction/impact on students. It's one thing to cover real topics in life but to glamorize such a final decision upon an audience who haven't yet developed coping mechanisms is troubling. Fortunately nothing tragic as a result but has brought a whole new level of unexpected workload, amongst other evolving social service demands, on public schools who are already underwater now dealing with matters other than educating.

I think it has started a conversation that needed to be had about bullying and suicide. How did it glamorize anything exactly? Extra workload? That sounds like a good thing.

 

[mattjames2010]

Not sure if you watched it all, but it certainly wasn't all petty, nor do I think it glamorized anything.

I didn't say everything was petty, I said sometimes. I also don't think it "glamourized", I think they attempted to push the "Little things can escalate to big things" - they basically rolled a bunch of hot topics into 13 tapes.

My issue is the execution and the entire motive behind it. A short note written before suicide? Sure. 13 freakin' tapes, that I'm sure had some retakes - no, this was a carefully laid out plan, not someone "suffering", it showed someone with a vindictive nature giving a one-sided story, at times.

It just wasn't a very good show.

 

[JackOfNoTrades]

I think it has started a conversation that needed to be had about bullying and suicide. How did it glamorize anything exactly? Extra workload? That sounds like a good thing.

All good questions and my original post was two fold.

Yes, this is a topic that could be a good thing to cover, get out there and spur proactive thought/conversation with those vulnerable but there's a collective response from those in the education and mental health field that this production misses the mark. Glamorizing in the sense that the main character is lauded after she took her life, which is too late and permanent. Children who are watching this see the attention w/o being able to cognitively grasp the permanence of a suicide, this show glamorizes the post-attention. There is a lot of documentation on this.

Public schools are not parents. It is real, HS kids are negatively reacting to this and in turn, schools are finding themselves having to monitor social media, deal with daily suicide assessments, etc. Public school's mantra is to educate and this is one, in a long line of many evolving social items, that are being dropped on schools to deal with.

I would say though that a positive result of this production is it helps identify children at risk, whether it be by schools or their parents.

 

[Galian Beast]

I didn't say everything was petty, I said sometimes. I also don't think it "glamourized", I think they attempted to push the "Little things can escalate to big things" - they basically rolled a bunch of hot topics into 13 tapes.

My issue is the execution and the entire motive behind it. A short note written before suicide? Sure. 13 freakin' tapes, that I'm sure had some retakes - no, this was a carefully laid out plan, not someone "suffering", it showed someone with a vindictive nature giving a one-sided story, at times.

It just wasn't a very good show.

I don't think it was just little things escalated into big things, but her support foundation crumbled around her. Some of the smaller things might have contributed to the bigger things, but it was really about three reasons that caused this and a couple things that lead to one of the bigger things in some ways. I thought that was well done and well delivered.

I definitely think she was suffering. Clay was suffering just listening to the tapes. I was suffering watching clay listen. I don't think these tapes were 13 hours long. I don't think it was vindictive. This girl was tormented. Did she get some of the facts wrong? Absolutely. Who doesn't? Especially when you're a traumatized teenager?

 

[Galian Beast]

All good questions and my original post was two fold.

Yes, this is a topic that could be a good thing to cover, get out there and spur proactive thought/conversation with those vulnerable but there's a collective response from those in the education and mental health field that this production misses the mark. Glamorizing in the sense that the main character is lauded after she took her life, which is too late and permanent. Children who are watching this see the attention w/o being able to cognitively grasp the permanence of a suicide, this show glamorizes the post-attention. There is a lot of documentation on this.

Public schools are not parents. It is real, HS kids are negatively reacting to this and in turn, schools are finding themselves having to monitor social media, deal with daily suicide assessments, etc. Public school's mantra is to educate and this is one, in a long line of many evolving social items, that are being dropped on schools to deal with.

I would say though that a positive result of this production is it helps identify children at risk, whether it be by schools or their parents.

Thanks for the response. I hope my questions didn't come across as an attack.

I'm not sure if you've seen the show, but I feel like that is a knee jerk response from the collective bodies you've brought up. Schools have failed for years to properly address bullying and something does a great job of bringing that to the forefront and it's disappointing that the first instinct is to shut it down. I don't recall one time in the series where Hannah (who is the narrator of the story but not the main character) is lauded. She is never lauded. The damage she leaves in her wake is presented clearly. Her character is presented as one that is flawed. Her decision is illustrated extremely grimly.

 

[JackOfNoTrades]

Thanks for the response. I hope my questions didn't come across as an attack.

I'm not sure if you've seen the show, but I feel like that is a knee jerk response from the collective bodies you've brought up. Schools have failed for years to properly address bullying and something does a great job of bringing that to the forefront and it's disappointing that the first instinct is to shut it down. I don't recall one time in the series where Hannah (who is the narrator of the story but not the main character) is lauded. She is never lauded. The damage she leaves in her wake is presented clearly. Her character is presented as one that is flawed. Her decision is illustrated extremely grimly.

Not seen as an attack at all, I appreciate healthy dialog. Your view of the show I'm thinking comes from an adult's perspective, not the undeveloped perception of a non-adult child.

And I think there may be differences in our expectations the role public schools are meant to play in children's lives. Schools are equipped to educate, not referee all social items. If schools are expected to handle evolving social issues, I'd like to hear your thoughts there.

 

[Galian Beast]

Not seen as an attack at all, I appreciate healthy dialog. Your view of the show I'm thinking comes from an adult's perspective, not the undeveloped perception of a non-adult child.

And I think there may be differences in our expectations the role public schools are meant to play in children's lives. Schools are equipped to educate, not referee all social items. If schools are expected to handle evolving social issues, I'd like to hear your thoughts there.

I think schools are meant to help bring children into society. Are they the parents? No, but schools are where children spend the most of their time in life. I think the schools have an obligation to moderate, mentor, and guide. I think this program creates a place for children to speak to guidance counselors, teachers, administrators, and parents. Schools are far crueler now than they were when we were younger. The role of the school has expanded.

 

[JackOfNoTrades]

Schools are far crueler now than they were when we were younger.

I pretty much agree with all you say but not understanding your quote above.

And I would also questions the expectation of "The role of the school has expanded" while schools have not been able to adapt to this expectation through staffing, funding, SMEs in the way of social workers/physiologists, etc. to meet the growing need. This is a real need in schools now that wasn't there when we were younger. It is an expectation schools expand to be the new Main St. USA for children but the cost involved to be that one-stop-shop is rejected...........

 

[Galian Beast]

The epidemic of bullying/online bullying is way worse now than it was 20-30 years ago.

Not to begin a political conversation, but I believe the funding should be there, especially for SMEs. I think we need to start having the conversations though.

 

[Kevinicus]

Expand on that if you would. How do you feel it was stupid and drawn out? The characters acted unrealistically? How so? I think you had people act like 16 and 17 year old kids...

You have a player on the Cowboys who gave up millions of dollars after failing 7 drug tests for marijuana... I mean... life is complex.

I don't think it had a poor message at all, but that's just me. Strongly recommend it.

Stupid that the kid wouldn't just listen to the damn tapes and just went around going after people as he listened to each one. I don't know anyone who wouldn't marathon those things. Stupid in how the previous people on the tapes were trying to gang up to "stop" him from doing whatever it was he was doing. Their motives weren't realistic. Stupid in that the parents had no clue about anything going on in their daughter's life and had no idea who any of her friends or the people she was hanging out with were, yet they were portrayed as loving parents. The same parents who filed a lawsuit without any evidence, or even a whisper, of anyone treating her daughter poorly. Then you have the other guy who is acting like some sort of guide and seemed more like a 30-year-old mentorish type character than a teenager. Then you have silly moments like the stop sign, and going to a party and staying alone with a known rapist.

Some of the poor messages that are poor are:

1. You are not solely responsible for your actions.
2. It's fair to blame others for what you do.
3. Suicide is a valid way to get the attention you want for the things you are feeling.
4.. Suicide is a way to really make people you feel hurt you feel guilty.
5. Other people should feel bad for not being nice to you after you treat them like crap.
6. When in doubt, sue.

Despite the phrase bullying being used in the show, and you mentioning it above, I don't think anything that happened would qualify as bullying. Some bad things happened to the character, but not as acts of bullying. This was not a character that was constantly picked on or attacked. Some actions were taken as a result of misperceptions, though.

 

[Galian Beast]

Stupid that the kid wouldn't just listen to the damn tapes and just went around going after people as he listened to each one. I don't know anyone who wouldn't marathon those things. Stupid in how the previous people on the tapes were trying to gang up to "stop" him from doing whatever it was he was doing. Their motives weren't realistic. Stupid in that the parents had no clue about anything going on in their daughter's life and had no idea who any of her friends or the people she was hanging out with were, yet they were portrayed as loving parents. The same parents who filed a lawsuit without any evidence, or even a whisper, of anyone treating her daughter poorly. Then you have the other guy who is acting like some sort of guide and seemed more like a 30-year-old mentorish type character than a teenager. Then you have silly moments like the stop sign, and going to a party and staying alone with a known rapist.

Some of the poor messages that are poor are:

1. You are not solely responsible for your actions.
2. It's fair to blame others for what you do.
3. Suicide is a valid way to get the attention you want for the things you are feeling.
4.. Suicide is a way to really make people you feel hurt you feel guilty.
5. Other people should feel bad for not being nice to you after you treat them like crap.
6. When in doubt, sue.

Despite the phrase bullying being used in the show, and you mentioning it above, I don't think anything that happened would qualify as bullying. Some bad things happened to the character, but not as acts of bullying. This was not a character that was constantly picked on or attacked. Some actions were taken as a result of misperceptions, though.

You've got to be kidding me...

[spoiler warning, though I'll try to keep spoilers to a miminum]

Let's see here

First, he doesn't marathon the tapes because the girl he's listening to the girl he loves who killed herself and is dreading getting to his own tape and he is listening to how he failed to recognize any of the issues surrounding her life. Not binge watching a netflix show.

The people on the previous tapes were trying to get him to shut up because they didn't want the tapes going public. Not sure how those weren't realistic motives. They all had reasons for not wanting things to be public.

The parents were dealing with a crisis of their own. They didn't realize how much their daughter was struggling and she tried to keep that from them as she didn't want to be an extra burden to them. The show establishes this. They were certainly loving parents. It doesn't mean they were able to reach her just because of that. She goes to parties and has some friends over. There isn't an instructional manual to teenagers.

The parents, the mother, in particular, filed a lawsuit because she wanted to blame the school as she didn't have anyone else to blame. It turns out that the school was certainly culpable.

[Spoilers hidden below]

1) The guidance counselor who victim shamed her when she reported the rape and told her to move on. Ignored her when she said she wanted her life to end.
2) The poem that she wrote that was published in school and the teacher did not investigate to find the author.
3) The rampant rumor milling and harassment in the school.

As for Tony, anyone could see clear as day, especially when he says he didn't follow the others that the only reason he follows Clay was to watch out for him and make sure he didn't hurt himself while he listens to the tapes, particularly when he gets to his own tape.

Stop sign was silly? Please knock down a stop sign and see if it doesn't quickly cause an accident. The point was you had a girl in Sherry who was so self absorbed that she cared more about the trouble she would be in with her dad than the possible outcome of tearing a stop sign down. Definitely something a kid who has panicked would do. Hannah tries to do the right thing, but it is too late. She was with her friends, who left, and upon Bryce coming into the hot tub she panicked. She eventually tries to leave and he overpowers her.

Solely responsible for your actions? Not sure which actions you are referring to, but if you think that everything that happens to a person is in their control, you're wildly naive.

Fair to blame others for what you do? I'm guessing you're saying she is blaming others for her killing herself. I think if you paid attention you would see that she wasn't really blaming anyone before Clay's tape. They changed the order of the tapes from the book, but she made the tapes as a goodbye to her friends as well as a final way to tell what happened to her. Almost everyone on the tapes except Bryce was a friend of hers at one point. The only other exceptions were Tyler and Mr. Porter...

The show certainly never says suicide is a valid way to go. I think you internalized that.

She could have made a tape without suicide to make them feel guility. I think you missed the point of the tapes.

Hannah certainly wasn't perfect, but I don't recall her treating anyone like crap.

When in doubt, sue? You might be right about this one. A grieving mother without any recourse or explanation for the loss of her daughter, struggling to find answers sued the school. Sounds like an antagonist to me. Pure villain.

Please define bullying if you think nothing that happened to her qualifies as bullying...

[spoliers below]
1. A photo of her is distributed to the entire school with the implication that she had sex with a boy in school (justin)
2. Alex creates a list the implies that he also had sex with her.
3. That list and photo lead to her being labeled and gossiped about.
4. The list and photo lead to her being sexually assaulted by Bryce in the convenient store.
5. The list and photo lead to her being sexually assaulted and manipulated by Marcus in the Diner.
6. The list and photo result in her being stalked by Tyler.
7. Her being stalked by Tyler results in a photo being taken of her in private and being distributed around the school.
8. This new photo results in Courtney making up, even more, rumors about her.
9. These rumors are made worse after Ryan steals her Poem (her private property) and publishes it for everyone in the school to see.
10. One of the only positive things she had to look forward to was some compliments she would receive in a communications class until Zach began stealing said compliments.

11. She is raped.
12. Her guidance counselor tells her to get over it. As he has boughten into the rumors and come to his own conclusion.

 

[Kevinicus]

You've got to be kidding me...

[spoiler warning, though I'll try to keep spoilers to a miminum]

Let's see here

First, he doesn't marathon the tapes because the girl he's listening to the girl he loves who killed herself and is dreading getting to his own tape and he is listening to how he failed to recognize any of the issues surrounding her life. Not binge watching a netflix show.

The people on the previous tapes were trying to get him to shut up because they didn't want the tapes going public. Not sure how those weren't realistic motives. They all had reasons for not wanting things to be public.

The parents were dealing with a crisis of their own. They didn't realize how much their daughter was struggling and she tried to keep that from them as she didn't want to be an extra burden to them. The show establishes this. They were certainly loving parents. It doesn't mean they were able to reach her just because of that. She goes to parties and has some friends over. There isn't an instructional manual to teenagers.

The parents, the mother, in particular, filed a lawsuit because she wanted to blame the school as she didn't have anyone else to blame. It turns out that the school was certainly culpable.

[Spoilers hidden below]

I think you have different views on people and how they act in reality than I do. As I said, I can't think of anyone I have ever met that would listen to the tapes the way he did. Not one. And your excuse for him doesn't work with what the show presented. He was constantly asking people to explain things to him, and he constantly failed to take their advice to just "LISTEN TO THE TAPES." All the answers to his questions were there, but he simply refused to take the necessary steps to get them. This was done soley to drag things out.

Of course, they didn't want the tapes public, though they were acting like their lives would be ruined if that was the case. That's laughable for several of them. The one with a life that could be really ruined (deservedly so) hadn't even heard the of tapes. It was simply taken to the extreme.

If they don't have ANY clue about anyone in their daughter's life, then no, they are not loving parents. They are self-absorbed parents. This girl was not just having some life of misery where she had to keep absolutely everything from them. She had friends she constantly hung out with, that were very positive times for her, and yet her parents knew nothing. They had no care at all about knowing the things she was up to.

Filing a lawsuit just cause is stupid, period. If the show had portrayed the parents more as the poor guardians that they were, this would be more excusable, but when it presents them in a positive light, it's a disservice.
1) The guidance counselor who victim shamed her when she reported the rape and told her to move on. Ignored her when she said she wanted her life to end.
2) The poem that she wrote that was published in school and the teacher did not investigate to find the author.
3) The rampant rumor milling and harassment in the school.

As for Tony, anyone could see clear as day, especially when he says he didn't follow the others that the only reason he follows Clay was to watch out for him and make sure he didn't hurt himself while he listens to the tapes, particularly when he gets to his own tape.

Stop sign was silly? Please knock down a stop sign and see if it doesn't quickly cause an accident. The point was you had a girl in Sherry who was so self absorbed that she cared more about the trouble she would be in with her dad than the possible outcome of tearing a stop sign down. Definitely something a kid who has panicked would do. Hannah tries to do the right thing, but it is too late. She was with her friends, who left, and upon Bryce coming into the hot tub she panicked. She eventually tries to leave and he overpowers her.

Solely responsible for your actions?

Yes. Does someone else control you?

Not sure which actions you are referring to, but if you think that everything that happens to a person is in their control, you're wildly naive.

I never said anything about what HAPPENS to a person is in their control.

Fair to blame others for what you do? I'm guessing you're saying she is blaming others for her killing herself. I think if you paid attention you would see that she wasn't really blaming anyone before Clay's tape. They changed the order of the tapes from the book, but she made the tapes as a goodbye to her friends as well as a final way to tell what happened to her. Almost everyone on the tapes except Bryce was a friend of hers at one point. The only other exceptions were Tyler and Mr. Porter...

I did pay attention. Maybe you are placing things from the book into the show? These were not goodbyes. It's laughable to suggest that.

The show certainly never says suicide is a valid way to go. I think you internalized that.

Of course, it doesn't SAY it. That's the message it sends though (like I said, all of the messages weren't intentional).

She could have made a tape without suicide to make them feel guilty. I think you missed the point of the tapes.

And of course, the suicide is what makes the tapes so significant. I think maybe you missed the point, or you're biased by the book (which I have not read).

Hannah certainly wasn't perfect, but I don't recall her treating anyone like crap.

She treated Clay like crap. She was pretty nasty to the Asian guy when he was trying to ask her out. She treated her two friends that dated like crap.

When in doubt, sue? You might be right about this one. A grieving mother without any recourse or explanation for the loss of her daughter, struggling to find answers sued the school. Sounds like an antagonist to me. Pure villain.

Pretty villainess, yes. It's a pretty despicable thing to do quite frankly. Attacking others and accusing when you have no idea or evidence is a low thing to do. Pain is not an excuse.

Please define bullying if you think nothing that happened to her qualifies as bullying...

The bullying in this show would be that of the photographer. Bad things happening != bullying. Rumors and perception != bullying.


[spoliers below]
1. A photo of her is distributed to the entire school with the implication that she had sex with a boy in school (justin) - This is a singular stupid and mean event by Justin. It was meantNot bullying.
2. Alex creates a list the implies that he also had sex with her. - The idea that the list implies he had sex with her is kind of ridiculous. A ranking of "bests" in the school is not bullying. It's an expression of an opinion. A singular event.
3. That list and photo lead to her being labeled and gossiped about. - Also not realistic. Everyone is labeled and gossiped about. That's not bullying.
4. The list and photo lead to her being sexually assaulted by Bryce in the convenient store. - This is a single case of assault...because Bryce is a despicable human being.
5. The list and photo lead to her being sexually assaulted and manipulated by Marcus in the Diner. -
6. The list and photo result in her being stalked by Tyler. Is this why he stalked her? I may have missed that explanation. Still, this is stalking, not bullying. From his perspective, he is hopeful she would never know about it. He didn't intend to hurt her or harass her or intimidate her.
7. Her being stalked by Tyler results in a photo being taken of her in private and being distributed around the school. - This of course, happened when they were trying to set him up. This is an extension of point 6. Not a new thing.
8. This new photo results in Courtney making up, even more, rumors about her. - This isn't shown in the show. In fact, it is shown that almost nobody realizes it's her, except the one guy at the dance.
9. These rumors are made worse after Ryan steals her Poem (her private property) and publishes it for everyone in the school to see. - Again, outside of her best friend, most people don't realize this is hers. This act had no ill-will towards her.
10. One of the only positive things she had to look forward to was some compliments she would receive in a communications class until Zach began stealing said compliments.

11. She is raped. - Not bullying. Just a terrible act by a horrible human.
12. Her guidance counselor tells her to get over it. As he has boughten into the rumors and come to his own conclusion - Not bullying, just a poor guidance counselor.
These are almost all singular events, many happening because of misperceptions, and not in an intent to harm or intimidate, and not repeated.
Your idea of bullying seems to be that if a group of bad things happen to someone that they were bullied.

What happened to Tyler is bullying. He was repeatedly picked on and intimidated by those who had a "superior" position within the school.

Not everything about the show was bad, and not all of the messages/points are without merit, but it is extremely flawed, and overall I don't view it as a positive viewing from either a narrative or message perspective.

Edit: I missed your stop sign comment (and others, but I think those issues are addressed). I have knocked a stop sign down. Neither's girl's reaction was realistic.

 

[Galian Beast]

I think you have different views on people and how they act in reality than I do. As I said, I can't think of anyone I have ever met that would listen to the tapes the way he did. Not one. And your excuse for him doesn't work with what the show presented. He was constantly asking people to explain things to him, and he constantly failed to take their advice to just "LISTEN TO THE TAPES." All the answers to his questions were there, but he simply refused to take the necessary steps to get them. This was done soley to drag things out.

Of course, they didn't want the tapes public, though they were acting like their lives would be ruined if that was the case. That's laughable for several of them. The one with a life that could be really ruined (deservedly so) hadn't even heard the of tapes. It was simply taken to the extreme.

If they don't have ANY clue about anyone in their daughter's life, then no, they are not loving parents. They are self-absorbed parents. This girl was not just having some life of misery where she had to keep absolutely everything from them. She had friends she constantly hung out with, that were very positive times for her, and yet her parents knew nothing. They had no care at all about knowing the things she was up to.

Filing a lawsuit just cause is stupid, period. If the show had portrayed the parents more as the poor guardians that they were, this would be more excusable, but when it presents them in a positive light, it's a disservice.
1) The guidance counselor who victim shamed her when she reported the rape and told her to move on. Ignored her when she said she wanted her life to end.
2) The poem that she wrote that was published in school and the teacher did not investigate to find the author.
3) The rampant rumor milling and harassment in the school.

As for Tony, anyone could see clear as day, especially when he says he didn't follow the others that the only reason he follows Clay was to watch out for him and make sure he didn't hurt himself while he listens to the tapes, particularly when he gets to his own tape.

Stop sign was silly? Please knock down a stop sign and see if it doesn't quickly cause an accident. The point was you had a girl in Sherry who was so self absorbed that she cared more about the trouble she would be in with her dad than the possible outcome of tearing a stop sign down. Definitely something a kid who has panicked would do. Hannah tries to do the right thing, but it is too late. She was with her friends, who left, and upon Bryce coming into the hot tub she panicked. She eventually tries to leave and he overpowers her.

Yes. Does someone else control you?



I never said anything about what HAPPENS to a person is in their control.



I did pay attention. Maybe you are placing things from the book into the show? These were not goodbyes. It's laughable to suggest that.



Of course, it doesn't SAY it. That's the message it sends though (like I said, all of the messages weren't intentional).



And of course, the suicide is what makes the tapes so significant. I think maybe you missed the point, or you're biased by the book (which I have not read).



She treated Clay like crap. She was pretty nasty to the Asian guy when he was trying to ask her out. She treated her two friends that dated like crap.



Pretty villainess, yes. It's a pretty despicable thing to do quite frankly. Attacking others and accusing when you have no idea or evidence is a low thing to do. Pain is not an excuse.



The bullying in this show would be that of the photographer. Bad things happening != bullying. Rumors and perception != bullying.


[spoliers below]
1. A photo of her is distributed to the entire school with the implication that she had sex with a boy in school (justin) - This is a singular stupid and mean event by Justin. It was meantNot bullying.
2. Alex creates a list the implies that he also had sex with her. - The idea that the list implies he had sex with her is kind of ridiculous. A ranking of "bests" in the school is not bullying. It's an expression of an opinion. A singular event.
3. That list and photo lead to her being labeled and gossiped about. - Also not realistic. Everyone is labeled and gossiped about. That's not bullying.
4. The list and photo lead to her being sexually assaulted by Bryce in the convenient store. - This is a single case of assault...because Bryce is a despicable human being.
5. The list and photo lead to her being sexually assaulted and manipulated by Marcus in the Diner. -
6. The list and photo result in her being stalked by Tyler. Is this why he stalked her? I may have missed that explanation. Still, this is stalking, not bullying. From his perspective, he is hopeful she would never know about it. He didn't intend to hurt her or harass her or intimidate her.
7. Her being stalked by Tyler results in a photo being taken of her in private and being distributed around the school. - This of course, happened when they were trying to set him up. This is an extension of point 6. Not a new thing.
8. This new photo results in Courtney making up, even more, rumors about her. - This isn't shown in the show. In fact, it is shown that almost nobody realizes it's her, except the one guy at the dance.
9. These rumors are made worse after Ryan steals her Poem (her private property) and publishes it for everyone in the school to see. - Again, outside of her best friend, most people don't realize this is hers. This act had no ill-will towards her.
10. One of the only positive things she had to look forward to was some compliments she would receive in a communications class until Zach began stealing said compliments.

11. She is raped. - Not bullying. Just a terrible act by a horrible human.
12. Her guidance counselor tells her to get over it. As he has boughten into the rumors and come to his own conclusion - Not bullying, just a poor guidance counselor.
These are almost all singular events, many happening because of misperceptions, and not in an intent to harm or intimidate, and not repeated.
Your idea of bullying seems to be that if a group of bad things happen to someone that they were bullied.

What happened to Tyler is bullying. He was repeatedly picked on and intimidated by those who had a "superior" position within the school.

Not everything about the show was bad, and not all of the messages/points are without merit, but it is extremely flawed, and overall I don't view it as a positive viewing from either a narrative or message perspective.

Edit: I missed your stop sign comment (and others, but I think those issues are addressed). I have knocked a stop sign down. Neither's girl's reaction was realistic.

ALL SPOILERS BELOW:

I think you believe people act rational and reasonably in all situations regardless of their circumstances. I believe they do not.

Clay had no desire to listen to the tape and dreaded hearing his own. He was already in a depression not to be confused with being depressed prior to listening to the tapes. He had previously been on medication for his depression before Hannah killed herself. So he had a history of depression. He asks others because he wanted clarity without going through with all the tapes.

Lives ruined is very subjective. Many of them were trying to get scholarships to specific schools and thought that may be in jeopardy if the tapes became public. The person who would have been least impacted in my mind was Ryan, Zach, and then Alex maybe. Everyone else though had pretty clear reasons for not wanting the tapes out there. Marcus had been accused of sexual assault. Courtney would have been outed. Tyler was a stalker. Jessica would have had everyone including her parents asking about the rape. Justin also wanted to prevent that. Sherry caused an accident that took someone's life. In general, no one associated with the tapes wanted people thinking they contributed to Hannah's death.

I think you might not have paid much attention to specific scenes that dipicted Hannah's family life. The Parents didn't have any idea what was going on because Hannah didn't tell them. From what they knew she was happy, going to parties, hanging out with friends, going to poetry readings. Hannah didn't talk to them about her problems because she was a teenager and felt she was a burden to her parents who were already struggling financially. They weren't self absorbed either. They tried to be there for her in many situations. She was pretty clearly loved.

Yup, forget her grief, filing a lawsuit was stupid.

Your actions aren't the only things that define what happen to you.

I didn't read the books, but I do not of some of the differences. I think changing the order was a huge mistake.

Somehow you came to the conclusion that was the message it was sending, but I never got that impression. How come I didn't get the message? Could it be that you were projecting here?

She didn't treat Clay like crap. She was emotional with him, but certainly didn't treat him like crap. Be specific if you believe that. If anything I would say Clay said some much nastier things to her.

She was nasty with the Asian guy telling him she wasn't interested in him? Really?

Did she treat Jessica and Alex like crap? Alex put her on a list, and that list caused Jessica to slap her and call her a profanities. What exactly did she do to Jessica and Alex again?

Bad things happening? You make them sound like acts of nature. No, people did bad things to her... that's bullying...


How did they act unrealistically when they knocked down the stop sign? Sherry didn't want her parents to find out because they would think she was driving drunk. She panicked and left. Hannah did the right thing and tried to call the police. Which of these was unrealistic?