Cap impact of cutting players reviewed

[dwreck27]

Flawed analysis as noted.

Sure, if you make Crawford a June 1 cut in 2018, you save $6MM. Great.

Who you have that's going to replace him and will play like he has this year? Oh, and that $6MM isn't available to you until after June 1.

Find another serviceable cheap jag??

Crawford isn’t dlaw or Irving he just does his job

 

[tm1119]

That is not the point of the thread.

The point of the thread is that dead-money is irrelevant for the Cowboys in 2018.

If you add 3 years of the cap together (2018, 2019 and 2020) that total is 6M less regardless of June 1st or immediate cut.

Replacing the player is a separate issue from dead-money.

You’re not making any sense...how does cutting guys like Crawford, Scandrick and Dez next off season instead of this season make a difference to future cap space? Yes, they have bad contracts at this point, but cutting them this off season doesn’t do much but create more holes to fill on a team with several holes already. I get what you are saying with the dead $ not being a big deal, but you can’t just pass off replacing them as a minor after thought. Let them play 1 more year and actually earn that guaranteed $ they are getting no matter what by playing for the cowboys, not another team. Next off season their dead $ becomes more palatable and we can draft and groom their replacement now, instead of scrambling to replace them

 

[xwalker]

I would agree with most of this. But I do have a couple of issues.

1. The Cowboys need to stop the continual restructuring Tyron Smith's deal. By continuing to move back cap charges, his cap number will continue to balloon until it becomes untenable. Especially if Smith continues to have back problems. Best way to deal with his contract is to just ride the contract out going forward with no further adjustments.
2. Why we would re-sign Wilber, I have no idea.
3. Re-signing Hitchens will cost a lot more than that. More likely in the $4M-$5M range. I'm not against re-signing him. Just that it's going to cost more.
4. When it's done Martin deal will be bigger than Zeitler's. How much bigger is anybody guess. But it will be more.

In regards to this thread, much of the savings from cuttings players is realized in future years, not the immediate year. Crawford 1.8M saved in 2018 and 4.2M saved in 2019. If you restructure Tyron to add 4.2M of cap space in 2018, then you can pay for that with the 4.2M saved in 2019 by cutting Crawford.

Even when they cut Romo, the dead-money from restructuring his contract multiple times was offset by not having to pay his scheduled salary for 2017. The salary was more than the dead-money which means they gained cap space when he was cut. If they had to pay another QB 20+ million to replace him, then it wouldn't work, but as long as you replace these veterans with young players everything works out. The dead-money occurs during the time the replacement is on a rookie contract.

 

[Sydla]

Find another serviceable cheap jag??

Crawford isn’t dlaw or Irving he just does his job

That's underselling Crawford. He's played much better than a JAG.

 

[xwalker]

You’re not making any sense...how does cutting guys like Crawford, Scandrick and Dez next off season instead of this season make a difference to future cap space? Yes, they have bad contracts at this point, but cutting them this off season doesn’t do much but create more holes to fill on a team with several holes already. I get what you are saying with the dead $ not being a big deal, but you can’t just pass off replacing them as a minor after thought. Let them play 1 more year and actually earn that guaranteed $ they are getting no matter what by playing for the cowboys, not another team. Next off season their dead $ becomes more palatable and we can draft and groom their replacement now, instead of scrambling to replace them

I didn't really say to cut them. The thread is about how to analyze the cap tamifications of cutting or keeping the players.

If you cut Crawford instead of keeping him, the gain is 6M. People try to confuse the issue by saying the gain is only 1.8M due to dead-money, but they neglect that 4.2M is saved in 2019 (1.8M + 4.2M = 6M).

If they're considering replacing Crawford with Datone Jones (800K for 2018), then they save 6M - 800K = 5.2M. Many people would post that they only save 1.8M - 800K = 1M because 1.8M is the 2018 portion of the savings from cutting Crawford.

It is the fallacy in bold above that I'm trying to explain and Crawford is just an example. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't cut him.

 

[gimmesix]

It isn't Dead Money until they are cut
Until they are cut it is prorated and it gets lowered if they stay

So it is disingenuous to say it doesn't matter
When people say you only save 1.8 by cutting TCrawford that is the actual factual bottom line as far as cap space goes.... yes you save the 6m in salary in real dollars but you also lose the production

If you are having a general conversation then yes, new money is all that should matter when cutting someone ....but that is in a vacuum...... the cost to replace the player has to also be examined and how much cap space is saved is important

Same with Dez. The savings next year would not be $12.5 million, which is his base salary, because the Cowboys have $8 million in guaranteed money tied up in him. The actual savings would be $8.5 million because his cap number is $16,500,000 ($12.5 million base and $4 million prorated bonus).

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

I just wanted to review the decision criteria of cutting or keeping a player relative to the salary cap.

For players like Scandrick, Crawford, Witten, Dez etc., only the amount of the base salary is important when deciding to keep or cut them. Dead-money is irrelevant to the decision.

I see many posts where the dead-money is referenced when discussing cutting players but it just confuses the issue and is irrelevant for the Cowboys.

Dead-money is called (unrealized) prorated bonus money when the player is on the team. That money hits the cap with or without the player on the team. It just changes names and the dates when it hits the cap but it's the same total amount either way.

The Cowboys don't manage the cap based on just the current or upcoming year. They manage it based on a multi-year strategy. Back when they were maxed out against the cap in 2013 and previous years, the immediate year was the primary decision criteria; however, those days are long gone.

If you add the next 3 year's cap totals together, that number is reduced by the amount of salary that will not be paid to the player.

This all assumes the player does not have a guaranteed salary or other guarantees which is almost always true if the player played at least 2 years on his current contract. Often the first two years of a contract will be guaranteed.

Scandrick - 3M saved if cut before the start of the 2018 season. It does not matter that there is 3.8M of dead-money. If he stays that 3.8M in dead-money hits the cap as 2.2M of prorated money in 2018 and 1.6M of prorated money in 2019. It's the same total either way.

As long as the team can move money from other contracts into the future, then dead-money from cutting a player is irrelevant to the decision to keep or cut the player.

If they sign a free agent or re-sign their own players, the first year cap hit is normally small. Back when they signed Brandon Carr to a 5-year, 50M contract (10M average) his 1st year cap hit was about 3.8M. That means they likely don't even need to restructure other contracts to sign or re-sign some players.

Savings from cutting players:
Scandrick 3M
Witten 6.5M
Crawford 6M
Dez 12.5M
Mayowa 2.75M
Hanna 2.75M

Dez's $12 most llion is eye-popping and unsustainable.
Cut this faded diva!!!!!

 

[Kaiser]

I think the main takeaway is that we will have plenty of money next year to get whoever is a fit and keep whoever we want to. In the OP I think Mayowa is the only guy cut and that is more about performance than salary. I think Tapper will be him out as the backup RDE and even if he didn't, his salary is out of line with his performance.

 

[gimmesix]

I didn't really say to cut them. The thread is about how to analyze the cap tamifications of cutting or keeping the players.

If you cut Crawford instead of keeping him, the gain is 6M. People try to confuse the issue by saying the gain is only 1.8M due to dead-money, but they neglect that 4.2M is saved in 2019 (1.8M + 4.2M = 6M).

If they're considering replacing Crawford with Datone Jones (800K for 2018), then they save 6M - 800K = 5.2M. Many people would post that they only save 1.8M - 800K = 1M because 1.8M is the 2018 portion of the savings from cutting Crawford.

It is the fallacy in bold above that I'm trying to explain and Crawford is just an example. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't cut him.

This doesn't take into account guaranteed money from the remainder of his contract IMO. We still owe Crawford $4 million from his signing bonus and $3.3 million from his restructure as far as the cap goes. We only lose the non-guaranteed base salaries, which is $6 million for Crawford in 2018.

We're set to pay him $9.1 million total ($6 million base, $2 million signing bonus and $1.1 million restructure) in 2018. If we cut him, we still take a cap hit because that $7.3 million in guaranteed money all hits the books for a total cap savings of $1.8 million.

I'm not sure where you get the $4.2 million. That would be the dead money hit if we cut him in 2019. It seems that you are failing to figure in the $3.3 million in guarantees next year, the $3.3 million in guarantees in 2019 and the $1.1 in guarantees for 2020. Whenever we cut him, the cap has to eat those guarantees.

 

[stilltheguru88]

Mayowa needs to watch himself. And Scandrick.

 

[xwalker]

This doesn't take into account guaranteed money from the remainder of his contract IMO. We still owe Crawford $4 million from his signing bonus and $3.3 million from his restructure as far as the cap goes. We only lose the non-guaranteed base salaries, which is $6 million for Crawford in 2018.

We're set to pay him $9.1 million total ($6 million base, $2 million signing bonus and $1.1 million restructure) in 2018. If we cut him, we still take a cap hit because that $7.3 million in guaranteed money all hits the books for a total cap savings of $1.8 million.

I'm not sure where you get the $4.2 million. That would be the dead money hit if we cut him in 2019. It seems that you are failing to figure in the $3.3 million in guarantees next year, the $3.3 million in guarantees in 2019 and the $1.1 in guarantees for 2020. Whenever we cut him, the cap has to eat those guarantees.

1. The prorated money is money he received already but has not yet been "charged" to the cap.

2. There is no guaranteed money remaining (i.e. Money he has not received but is guaranteed to him).

3. If cut immediately (not June 1st) it frees up 1.8M in 2018 and 4.2M in 2019. Those 2 number add together to equal 6M.

 

[xwalker]

Same with Dez. The savings next year would not be $12.5 million, which is his base salary, because the Cowboys have $8 million in guaranteed money tied up in him. The actual savings would be $8.5 million because his cap number is $16,500,000 ($12.5 million base and $4 million prorated bonus).

Again, prorated money is not the same as guaranteed money.

Prorated - Already received by the player but not yet charged to the cap.

Guaranteed - Not yet received by the player but guaranteed to be paid to him at some point.

 

[Vanilla2]

I bet if I were new here I wouldn’t see this thread as a Dez needs to be cut thread

 

[waving monkey]

Another benefit of having cap space is that they can wait until after training camp to make decisions about players like Scandrick, Crawford, etc.. If they are satisfied with the replacements, then theuly can cut them and save the money. If not, then keep them another year.

this is a small luxury but a good one
the replacement cost isn't so much the point because if your unsatisfied with the player
the "placement cost" is just doing business to upgrade

 

[Manwiththeplan]

I would agree with most of this. But I do have a couple of issues.

1. The Cowboys need to stop the continual restructuring Tyron Smith's deal. By continuing to move back cap charges, his cap number will continue to balloon until it becomes untenable. Especially if Smith continues to have back problems. Best way to deal with his contract is to just ride the contract out going forward with no further adjustments.

I disagree for a number of reasons, first, he originally signed an 8 year deal, and signing bonus are only spread out over 5. Meaning when we restructure every year, we're putting money into some of those years, 2014-2018, but starting in 2019, his cap numbers start going down. So it won't continue to balloon. Second, he just turned 27 earlier this week, he'll be a top LT long through this deal.

2. Why we would re-sign Wilber, I have no idea.

Do you watch special teams, or just change the channel during punts?

 

[Nightman]

Same with Dez. The savings next year would not be $12.5 million, which is his base salary, because the Cowboys have $8 million in guaranteed money tied up in him. The actual savings would be $8.5 million because his cap number is $16,500,000 ($12.5 million base and $4 million prorated bonus).

What X is really trying to say is that cutting a player should only be based on whether or not you think he is worth his salary going forward, not what his dead money will be

Dez is due 12.5m next year...... I would try to extend him to get that number down but I wouldn't cut him if we didn't...... saving 8.5m against the cap would be a big deal if we weren't 60m under the cap next year.... He is still our best WR.....if we can find a better WR in the draft then add him Dez by all means and cut NBrown or TWill

Same with TCrawford.....he is due 6m next year ..... he is well worth that.......if you can sign or draft a better DE/DT please do but cut Mayowa or Ash or Price or Neal...... no the guy that is top 20 in hurries

 

[gimmesix]

1. The prorated money is money he received already but has not yet been "charged" to the cap.

2. There is no guaranteed money remaining (i.e. Money he has not received but is guaranteed to him).

3. If cut immediately (not June 1st) it frees up 1.8M in 2018 and 4.2M in 2019. Those 2 number add together to equal 6M.

I only think in terms of cap money.

At some point, it becomes a fiscal necessity to cut a player because his dead cap hit is far less than his base salary.

Your thread title is "cap impact of cutting players is reviewed." The cap savings have to be looked at for the season the player is cut. You can't add up the next year's savings because you can simply save that money by cutting him next year.

With Crawford, the question would be whether saving $1.8 million in 2018 is worth what we would lose, because that's all that really matters.

If we don't believe he's worth more than saving $1.8 million, then we can cut him in 2019 save almost $6 million. At that point, his value will be less than the savings.

Cutting Bryant in 2018 gives us $8.5 million in cap relief. Cutting him the following year results in $12.5 million in savings.

When the money is charged to the cap is all that's important.

 

[stilltheguru88]

Cutting Scandrick isn’t a loss, it’s a necessity. Will he go from captain to bench player? Doubt it, but that’s what his play is.

 

[gimmesix]

Again, prorated money is not the same as guaranteed money.

Prorated - Already received by the player but not yet charged to the cap.

Guaranteed - Not yet received by the player but guaranteed to be paid to him at some point.

Semantics. Both are money the player receives that will hit the cap. The only money that is not guaranteed to hit the cap is a player's base salary although sometimes that's guaranteed as well and bonuses based on incentives.

Bryant's $20 million signing bonus was guaranteed, which means he gets it all no matter what, and prorated, which means it hits the cap incrementally over the course of his contract. $12 million has hit the cap, so if we cut him in 2018, then the remaining $8 million hits the cap immediately. If we wait until 2019, then $4 million hits the cap,

 

[Direwolf63]

I disagree for a number of reasons, first, he originally signed an 8 year deal, and signing bonus are only spread out over 5. Meaning when we restructure every year, we're putting money into some of those years, 2014-2018, but starting in 2019, his cap numbers start going down. So it won't continue to balloon. Second, he just turned 27 earlier this week, he'll be a top LT long through this deal.




Do you watch special teams, or just change the channel during punts?

Kyle Wilber has to be more than just a special teams player. When Sean Lee and Hitchens were out and Jaylon Smith was struggling terribly, where was he?

If the coaches don't think enough of him to play him when LB's were falling like flies, there is a problem. He obviously isn't good enough, despite his abilites on special teams.

The linebackers need upgrading. Badly. Durant and Wilber need to be upgraded. There was be guys to play special teams who can also contribute to a position. Like Kavon Frazier, for example. Wilber contributes nothing at LB.