Running game philosophy

[waldoputty]

I would expect total yardage to favor running from a spread out formation.

I would be interested to know (specific to the Cowboys in recent years) what their success rate has been on 3rd and short rushing attempts from different formations.

me too.
we had this discussion in 2016, but the stats actually favored the 2-te power formation.
the problem now is that we dont have the same ols and the same tes.
also defenses may have adapted to the 2016 offense.
it appears garrett and linehan just would not adapt.

 

[Jake]

the 90's approach is to overwhelm the opposition with more force and power.
you have big dl.
then we get big ol that are pro bowl strong.

another approach is to spread out the defense to make zeke more effective.
i think this is the way to go, particularly with tfred being out and the rookie og lacking strength.
note that this second approach is complementary with the 1st approach having big pro bowl ol.

it seems garrett and linehan are stuck to the 1st approach.
in the game against the giants, it seems the multi-wr sets were more successful.
does anyone know if that was true on the running game?
i think @xwalker mentioned the tightends were used in some blocking scheme that worked, which supports the use more force approach.
though i also remember the zeke/austin reverse that worked great using misdirection.

It's not just the running game philosophy but the entire offensive philosophy. Trying to bring back the 90s ignores that the rules have changed and the game with it. Passing is easier than ever now, and the rules protecting QBs and receivers have opened up the middle of the field to where you no longer have to fear getting your head taken off.

The most dynamic offenses in the NFL - New England, Pittsburgh, the Rams, KC - take advantage of those 21st century changes while the Cowboys draft road graders and attempt to find the next Emmitt Smith.

 

[Roadtrip635]

as far i as i remember, they did the zeke/austin misdirection once.
it worked great to 15 yards worth.
then it went back on the shelf for the game.
it is as if they did their obligatory misdirection to keep defenders off zeke.
but then went back to their comfort power game zone.
there were penalties that killed a drive, but it appears the lack of creativity killed the offense in quarters 2 and 3.

Yep, the old it works so we better not do that again ploy. Some more misdirection and counters, instead of let's just pound the middle and see if that's working yet. I joked a couple times about it, but KC ran a triple option with Mahomes, Hunt and Hill and worked great. Obviously, that's not a play you could do often but a creative example to help jump start or catch a defense. Dak, Zeke, Tavon triple option would make a defense poop itself.

 

[Clove]

the spread / hurry-up offense also plays to dak's strength.
this coaching staff is thoroughly frustrating.
it took richard to make bjones a cb and play press/blitz.

Dude, you are definitely on to something. Run a hurry up sometimes to get Dak going. Whatever works, go with that. Don't stifle the offense with your stubborn philosophy... Go with what works.

 

[waldoputty]

Dude, you are definitely on to something. Run a hurry up sometimes to get Dak going. Whatever works, go with that. Don't stifle the offense with your stubborn philosophy... Go with what works.

the problem is that it may need new coaches to do these things.
linehan showed a few nice plays then went back into his/garrett's comfort zone of the old power game again.

 

[Roadtrip635]

me too.
we had this discussion in 2016, but the stats actually favored the 2-te power formation.
the problem now is that we dont have the same ols and the same tes.
also defenses may have adapted to the 2016 offense.
it appears garrett and linehan just would not adapt.

People talk about losing Witt and forget how good a blocker Hanna was. He was an overlooked player in our success running the ball.

 

[waldoputty]

People talk about losing Witt and forget how good a blocker Hanna was. He was an overlooked player in our success running the ball.

i think a lot of it is defense seeing what works and what does not after getting pounded into submission in 2016.

 

[waldoputty]

Yep, the old it works so we better not do that again ploy. Some more misdirection and counters, instead of let's just pound the middle and see if that's working yet. I joked a couple times about it, but KC ran a triple option with Mahomes, Hunt and Hill and worked great. Obviously, that's not a play you could do often but a creative example to help jump start or catch a defense. Dak, Zeke, Tavon triple option would make a defense poop itself.

they got tavon to take attention from zeke.
but yet they do not use it.
it is quite unbelievable.

 

[perrykemp]

It's not just the running game philosophy but the entire offensive philosophy. Trying to bring back the 90s ignores that the rules have changed and the game with it. Passing is easier than ever now, and the rules protecting QBs and receivers have opened up the middle of the field to where you no longer have to fear getting your head taken off.

This.

It's questionable that it's even worth the climb of investing heavily in OL and RBs to build a power running game as the primary emphasis of the offense when you consider the massive changes that have occurred over the past decade or so -- all of which open up the passing game even more.... the Tom Brady Rule, the Aaron Rodgers rule, the defenseless receiver rule, increased emphasis on defensive holding / pass interference, etc

 

[waldoputty]

This.

It's questionable that it's even worth the climb of investing heavily in OL and RBs to build a power running game as the primary emphasis of the offense when you consider the massive changes that have occurred over the past decade or so -- all of which open up the passing game even more.... the Tom Brady Rule, the Aaron Rodgers rule, the defenseless receiver rule, increased emphasis on defensive holding / pass interference, etc

i think there is a big benefit of investing in the ol.
if deployed correctly, the investment can smash defenses to bit with too many areas to defend.
the problem is the scheme/focus and the recent health issues with tsmith and tfred.

 

[beware_d-ware]

The problem with our run scheme IMO is that it's way too predictable. From 2014-17 this was a bit of a necessary evil, as we had a ~25 carry quota to hit to control TOP and you're not going to get that without running into a few stacked fronts. But now, we keep doing the same thing and it just shows the shortcomings of this coaching staff.

The 2 TE "heavy" sets are a killer, because they basically telegraph that we're going to run. IIRC, we ran about 80% of the time out of 2 TE last year, and teams respect Zeke way more than the respect Swaim and Jarwin, so they're going to load up the box every time we give them that look. Even in 2nd and 17 vs Carolina, when we went 2 TE, Carolina responded with an 8 man box and 10 yard cushions on the perimeter. And we freaking ran it at them anyway. If anyone's got numbers for our YPC in 2 TE sets, I'd love to see it, cause those plays never seem to work out. WR sweeps, same thing. They were a fun twist with Lucky, but the league's figured them out now: keep your corners wide for the sweep, and watch Beasley because he's getting the ball on a screen if it's a fake.

Stuff like that is why it's so frustrating to watch this team pound the rock straight at studs like Kawann Short or Snacks Harrison thinking "hey, maybe Zeke will break one!", while the Eagles are using trap runs to cut those guys out of the play entirely if they get too aggressive. RPOs work awesome for this team because they force the LBs to freeze and think rather than just flying downhill. Why aren't they a staple of our run game, rather than something we just mix in in hurry-up drills? Or throw Zeke 10 flare passes in the flat like New York did, bypass the D-line entirely, and force their back 7 to tackle in space.

There's so many different approaches to this problem, but this team seems dead set on putting their 2 absolute worst offensive starters (TEs) on the field and running inside into stacked boxes where the blocking numbers are against them. As a whole, this entire system seems like it's never moved past 90s Air Coryell.

 

[waldoputty]

The problem with our run scheme IMO is that it's way too predictable. From 2014-17 this was a bit of a necessary evil, as we had a ~25 carry quota to hit to control TOP and you're not going to get that without running into a few stacked fronts. But now, we keep doing the same thing and it just shows the shortcomings of this coaching staff.

The 2 TE "heavy" sets are a killer, because they basically telegraph that we're going to run. IIRC, we ran about 80% of the time out of 2 TE last year, and teams respect Zeke way more than the respect Swaim and Jarwin, so they're going to load up the box every time we give them that look. Even in 2nd and 17 vs Carolina, when we went 2 TE, Carolina responded with an 8 man box and 10 yard cushions on the perimeter. And we freaking ran it at them anyway. If anyone's got numbers for our YPC in 2 TE sets, I'd love to see it, cause those plays never seem to work out. WR sweeps, same thing. They were a fun twist with Lucky, but the league's figured them out now: keep your corners wide for the sweep, and watch Beasley because he's getting the ball on a screen if it's a fake.

Stuff like that is why it's so frustrating to watch this team pound the rock straight at studs like Kawann Short or Snacks Harrison thinking "hey, maybe Zeke will break one!", while the Eagles are using trap runs to cut those guys out of the play entirely if they get too aggressive. RPOs work awesome for this team because they force the LBs to freeze and think rather than just flying downhill. Why aren't they a staple of our run game, rather than something we just mix in in hurry-up drills? Or Throw Zeke 10 flare passes in the flat like New York did, bypass the D-line entirely, and force their back 7 to tackle in space.

There's so many different approaches to this problem, but this team seems dead set on putting their 2 absolute worst offensive starters (TEs) on the field and running inside into stacked boxes where the blocking numbers are against them. As a whole, this entire system seems like it's never moved past 90s Air Coryell.

it is so ******** frustrating to watch. they had a number of good plays including the zeke-austin reverse. and then boom, back to the same old thing again. or they tried to loosen up the defense by doing a few new plays, but then boom, right back to the same old thing.

it is as if they were satisfying the press/fans and then they go back to their warm fuzzy offense which basically sucks, particularly given their current personnel.

 

[eromeopolk]

the 90's approach is to overwhelm the opposition with more force and power.
you have big dl.
then we get big ol that are pro bowl strong.

another approach is to spread out the defense to make zeke more effective.
i think this is the way to go, particularly with tfred being out and the rookie og lacking strength.
note that this second approach is complementary with the 1st approach having big pro bowl ol.

it seems garrett and linehan are stuck to the 1st approach.
in the game against the giants, it seems the multi-wr sets were more successful.
does anyone know if that was true on the running game?
i think @xwalker mentioned the tightends were used in some blocking scheme that worked, which supports the use more force approach.
though i also remember the zeke/austin reverse that worked great using misdirection.

No matter the approach you better have a FB that can even the box and a no. 1 WR and no.1 TE that can take a defender out the box. Jonesboys have neither.

 

[blueblood70]

I have been saying this for years that Garrett/Linehan poorly manage the running game because they are stuck in the 1990s mindset back when we not only had one of the best offensive lines, but also one that was much better than most NFL defensive lines back then. That's not the case now for the Cowboys or any team as the defensive linemen have gotten stronger, faster and much better.

When you see other team's running backs doing so well and looking so fast and quick with their runs its because most of the other teams have weak areas on the offensive line so they strategize accordingly by spreading out the offense.

It probably frustrates me the most though when they do the "bunch" formation near the goal line. Yet, when they go for 2, what do they do? Spread the offense out so Dak can walk into the end zone.

I dont see this as true the last 4-5 years..we pull and move our guys as much as anyone...SL throws too much IMO at times falls in luv with throw after throw..15 carries 1st game is inexcusable, seriously that was terms for being fired.... we do not have Maulers like the 90s and not drafting them , we have big but athletic group and they pull and switch all the time.. the problem has been health, new guys each year(2) and need time to gel, and play calling.. seriously what do you guys watch they are taught to pull chip get to 2nd level etc we are not trying to over power anyone unless the actual play called for it and sometimes sure you line up in the I short yardage and goaline and say go manhandle the guy in front of you..

BTW some forget with Bill Callahan we were doing a lot better, last two years were ok with whats his name pollack, and now once again a new Oline coach..add the injuries and new guys in there and you can see whats wrong..more about gelling and consistency lost with all these changes..

 

[waldoputty]

No matter the approach you better have a FB that can even the box and a no. 1 WR and no.1 TE that can take a defender out the box. Jonesboys have neither.

if u have 4 wide out, you take 4 or probably 5 away from the box close to the los.
the 5 ol would have to go after 6 defenders most of the time.
with dak being a scrambling threat, that is really 7 against 6 most of the time.

 

[ShiningStar]

Fact: the coaches have mishandled this since day 1.

 

[waldoputty]

Fact: the coaches have mishandled this since day 1.

yep, all the talk of smashmouth spread, and so little action
so pathetic
we have the perfect personnel for it once tfred gets back(knock on wood)

 

[ShiningStar]

yep, all the talk of smashmouth spread, and so little action
so pathetic
we have the perfect personnel for it once tfred gets back(knock on wood)

Garrett abandoned the run agianst the Giants on Saturday

 

[waldoputty]

Garrett abandoned the run agianst the Giants on Saturday

the way they were running, they kind of had to abandon the run.

 

[percyhoward]

There is some evidence that rushing success is based more on how many defenders are in the box than on the number of blockers.

By rushing success do you mean successful plays (where down and distance figure into the equation) or simply yards per carry? I ask because YPC could be inflated by third down "give-up" runs in very long-yardage situations against a defense that's playing the pass.