Player Evaluation - Fans/Media vs Great Coaches

xwalker said:

Fans/media focus on individual players.

Great coaches focus on players that win as part of a team.

Seeing the Patriots win another Super Bowl really highlights this concept.

Going back in time, the best example to me is Emmitt vs Barry Sanders. Fans/media love to heap accolades onto Barry Sanders; however, Emmitt has 3 rings. Knowing what we know now, if Jimmy could go back and had the option to choose between Emmitt and Barry Sanders, there is zero chance that he would pick Sanders.

The Patriots have a few great players (Gronk, etc.) but in general not that many players that the media constantly slobbers over during the season as being the greatest.

Obviously Brady is regarded as great; however, that's really because of all the Super Bowls. If he was on a team that didn't win, the media wouldn't be overly focused on him. He is much more about consistently than wow plays and doesn't do anything physically freakish.

Back in the day, fans/media constantly praised Dan Marino as the greatest; however, weak-armed Joe Montana and Low Passing Stats Aikman won the the Super Bowls, not Marino.

The 2018 Rams were similar to the Patriots in this regard. Their individual OLinemen were not really considered as great and some of them had been disappointments with previous coaches/teams. Their #1 TE was Tyler Higbee. Is Goff a great player? Gurley is a great RB but was limited due to injury issues. The WRs are top notch but not freaks. Obviously the DTs are great but the rest of the other individual players on their defense didn't get constant accolades individually (as of 2018).

Back to the Cowboys nineties Super Bowl teams, they were very deep and talented but didn't really have that many freak players that the national media would rank as the greatest ever, especially not on a list focused on freakish athletic ability. The athletic freaks were Deion, Leon Lett, Larry Allen, Erik Williams and Woodson and only EW and Woodson were starters on 2 or more of the Super Bowl teams. Note: There is probably another player or two from those teams that some might consider a freak.

The top 3 players from the Cowboys nineties Super Bowl teams tend to be lower on most "Greatest" lists than their accomplishments would otherwise suggest. Neither Emmitt or Irvin were close to being athletic freaks. Aikman's passing stats including TDs pale in comparison to Dan Marino's.

On the flip side, DWare, Dez, Tyron have all been considered athletic freaks but only Ware made it to the Super Bowl and was not even the top pass rusher on that team.

The good news is that that the 2018 Cowboys roster had the type of talent at most positions that is above average but not the freaks that fans/media constantly praise as the greatest. It's very similar to the type of roster that Belichick uses to win Super Bowls.

The bad news is that New England's roster might not have made the playoffs with Garrett as their Head Coach...

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xwalker said:

The bad news is that New England's roster might not have made the playoffs with Garrett as their Head Coach...

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Crown Royal said:

Is the point of this thread to lament that Jason Garrett isn't Bill Belichek?

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xwalker said:

Fans/media focus on individual players.

Great coaches focus on players that win as part of a team.


The good news is that that the 2018 Cowboys roster had the type of talent at most positions that is above average but not the freaks that fans/media constantly praise as the greatest. It's very similar to the type of roster that Belichick uses to win Super Bowls.

The bad news is that New England's roster might not have made the playoffs with Garrett as their Head Coach...

Click to expand...

beware_d-ware said:

Tbh, I don't think we're that deep. Zeke, Coop, and Tyron are the Jenga blocks holding this offense up, and on defense, I don't think we have great #2s at any position besides CB (where we're rolling with 4 legit starter caliber players - Jourdan Lewis can cover Kamara man to man and he barely even saw the field). It's not quite the Romo-Witten-Ware show it was a decade ago, but it's still being held together by a half dozen players IMO.

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Trendnet said:

It's amazing that Belichick has a losing record without Tom Brady.

coAchiNG MatTers!

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Zman5 said:

Zach Martin says hi.

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beware_d-ware said:

Martin's a heck of a player, but we lost him for a couple games this year and our offense didn't go off the rails. Switch out Tyron with Cameron Fleming and it might be a different story.

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Crown Royal said:

Is the point of this thread to lament that Jason Garrett isn't Bill Belichek?

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CATCH17 said:

And that has been the problem and why Jerry Jones has done himself a disservice with his loyalty to Jason Garrett.

He owns the biggest franchise in all of sports but yet he gave Jason Garrett the keys for a decade with little to no meaningful success.

He just can't put it all together.

He'll probably give Dak an obnoxious contract that limits what we can do and then finally hire a real coach after next season and we will be chasing our tail again because Dak isn't capable of carrying a football team.


We have wasted Romo, Dez, Witten, & Ware.. Now it's Zekes turn. 3 years already into a RB's career a lot and next season is a wasted season with a lame duck coach.

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xwalker said:

Fans/media focus on individual players.

Great coaches focus on players that win as part of a team.

Seeing the Patriots win another Super Bowl really highlights this concept.

Going back in time, the best example to me is Emmitt vs Barry Sanders. Fans/media love to heap accolades onto Barry Sanders; however, Emmitt has 3 rings. Knowing what we know now, if Jimmy could go back and had the option to choose between Emmitt and Barry Sanders, there is zero chance that he would pick Sanders.

The Patriots have a few great players (Gronk, etc.) but in general not that many players that the media constantly slobbers over during the season as being the greatest.

Obviously Brady is regarded as great; however, that's really because of all the Super Bowls. If he was on a team that didn't win, the media wouldn't be overly focused on him. He is much more about consistently than wow plays and doesn't do anything physically freakish.

Back in the day, fans/media constantly praised Dan Marino as the greatest; however, weak-armed Joe Montana and Low Passing Stats Aikman won the the Super Bowls, not Marino.

The 2018 Rams were similar to the Patriots in this regard. Their individual OLinemen were not really considered as great and some of them had been disappointments with previous coaches/teams. Their #1 TE was Tyler Higbee. Is Goff a great player? Gurley is a great RB but was limited due to injury issues. The WRs are top notch but not freaks. Obviously the DTs are great but the rest of the other individual players on their defense didn't get constant accolades individually (as of 2018).

Back to the Cowboys nineties Super Bowl teams, they were very deep and talented but didn't really have that many freak players that the national media would rank as the greatest ever, especially not on a list focused on freakish athletic ability. The athletic freaks were Deion, Leon Lett, Larry Allen, Erik Williams and Woodson and only EW and Woodson were starters on 2 or more of the Super Bowl teams. Note: There is probably another player or two from those teams that some might consider a freak.

The top 3 players from the Cowboys nineties Super Bowl teams tend to be lower on most "Greatest" lists than their accomplishments would otherwise suggest. Neither Emmitt or Irvin were close to being athletic freaks. Aikman's passing stats including TDs pale in comparison to Dan Marino's.

On the flip side, DWare, Dez, Tyron have all been considered athletic freaks but only Ware made it to the Super Bowl and was not even the top pass rusher on that team.

The good news is that that the 2018 Cowboys roster had the type of talent at most positions that is above average but not the freaks that fans/media constantly praise as the greatest. It's very similar to the type of roster that Belichick uses to win Super Bowls.

The bad news is that New England's roster might not have made the playoffs with Garrett as their Head Coach...

Click to expand...

Verdict said:

That's a very good write up, and I agree with your general premise. It is spot on. However I do think there are some nuances regarding you post that are worth looking at a bit closer.

I think the Rams were actually a better team than the Patriots. I suspected that New England would win unless the Rams defense was dominant for two reasons:

1. Brady, The Hoodie and the Patriots weren't going to beat themselves.

2. Goff, McVay and co are young and the pressure of not making mistakes/over thinking it with everything on the line was probably asking a bit much.

Back to your points. I think the Cowboys have more overall talent than the Rams and the Patriots. But we do not have players inside (at DT) to consistently give teams problems at running if they are really good at it, or to collapse the pocket from the inside against the better O Lines in the league.

The Saints are a finesse running team and I believe that is why we had more success against them than the Rams which are more physical inside. The Colts also gave us fits.

It's just my perspective but if you could only have the choice between Tank or a dominant DT, take the dominant DT, because it would make the lesser DEs look better (Armstrong). It would also even the slate against really physical OLs. Build from the inside out.

So yes I agree with your post, all I am saying is it matters where your dominant players play as well.

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northerncowboynation said:

Can't measure heart which is what separated Emmitt from Sanders. Aikman had a knack for dialing it up in the play offs but his passing stats during the season were rarely drool worthy. His accuracy and chemistry with Irvin was always a thing of beauty. As far as the Patriots not making it to the playoffs under JG, with the GOAT QB, who knows. Brady has had one HC in his entire career so the two will always be connected as the greatest of all time. Wonder who retires first, Brady or Bell. If I was to guess, both at the same time, no other HC will ever coach Brady and Brady will be Bellichiks last QB (disregarding injuries for the next 4 years). In both of their cases it's brains over brawn

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The bad news is that New England's roster might not have made the playoffs with Garrett as their Head Coach...[/QUOTE said:

I think you also need to add crooked refs into the equation. Those calls or no calls make a huge difference. We all know Dez caught that ball.

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Verdict said:

That's a very good write up, and I agree with your general premise. It is spot on. However I do think there are some nuances regarding you post that are worth looking at a bit closer.

I think the Rams were actually a better team than the Patriots. I suspected that New England would win unless the Rams defense was dominant for two reasons:

1. Brady, The Hoodie and the Patriots weren't going to beat themselves.

2. Goff, McVay and co are young and the pressure of not making mistakes/over thinking it with everything on the line was probably asking a bit much.

Back to your points. I think the Cowboys have more overall talent than the Rams and the Patriots. But we do not have players inside (at DT) to consistently give teams problems at running if they are really good at it, or to collapse the pocket from the inside against the better O Lines in the league.

The Saints are a finesse running team and I believe that is why we had more success against them than the Rams which are more physical inside. The Colts also gave us fits.

It's just my perspective but if you could only have the choice between Tank or a dominant DT, take the dominant DT, because it would make the lesser DEs look better (Armstrong). It would also even the slate against really physical OLs. Build from the inside out.

So yes I agree with your post, all I am saying is it matters where your dominant players play as well.

Click to expand...