Cowboys early 2000's teams defense of not moving on from Dak

[Blitzen]

If Dak has not already convinced you that he will not be going on a deep playoff run no matter which players and coaches are now around him, you will never be convinced. He has proven to succeed against very poor clubs (and occasionally against other good teams in the regular season), and will gladly pad stats when leading games. He has proven to start very poorly in most playoff games versus strong(er) competition in higher stakes games.

If you are of the opinion that the early 2000’s Cowboys teams were equal or close to the talent or coaching of the team the past three seasons (but minus a franchise QB)-I’m sorry that you cannot see the profound differences in talent across the whole roster and coaching talent.

I do not understand the intense aversion of moving on to the unproven-considering it will absolutely happen in the next 5-10 seasons either way. QB’s do not suddenly start succeeding in the playoffs after this many seasons (when the team and said QB have never even reached a conference championship game together during that long a tenure).

Yes, I understand that Jones is almost certain to give Dak another mega-extension. I do not understand the celebration that many will have because all it should mean to Cowboys’ fans is an extension of zero deep playoff runs.

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

Not sure your title matches your comment. Can you clarify?

 

[Blitzen]

Not sure your title matches your comment. Can you clarify?

There is this prevailing message of what the current Cowboys’ team looks like without a franchise QB. The early 2000’s Cowboys’ teams are used as reference-and defense of what moving on from a franchise QB looks like. Clint Stoerner, Chad Hutchinson, Anthony Wright, Quincy Carter, Drew Henson, etc.

The argument relies on the fallacy that those teams were somehow close to the last three Cowboys’ teams in regards to talent and coaching. It is absurd to think that the past three teams for the Cowboys were somehow comparable outside of QB talent with the teams of the early 2000’s.

 

[Creeper]

I have consistently opposed Dak getting his last contract for $40 million over 4 years with a no trade clause. I would not have done it and I would have let Dak walk in 2021 before I would give him that deal. Jerry franchised him then and should have sought a trade rather than make that deal. I have been firm in my objections. Not only was he not worth the $40 million then, but for only 4 years it guaranteed Dak would be back at the table demanding even more money as we expect he will this year. IMO opinion, as I expressed then, Dak never proved he was worth that kind of money, and the 2019 December Eagles game was a big red flag for me. If Jerry was going to give Dak $40 million, he should have held out for an 8 year agreement so he would not be facing what he is facing now. At least then the $40 million over 8 years would not put the Cowboys in a CAP nightmare. And he never should have agree to a no trade clause.

However, that was then. This is now. Dak got his deal. Jerry restructured it a couple of times pushing $36 MM into voidable years and there is no way around taking a huge CAP hit(dead money) unless Dak gets an extension. Jerry has the same decision now he had in 2021 except he can't trade Dak, he can't put a franchise tag on him, he really can't restructure his deal anymore, and he has no real backup plan. In 2021 if Jerry had traded Dak for a couple of first round picks, I think we would all have been okay. Today, we can cut Dak and get nothing for him, eat $62 MM in dead money while we are $20 MM over the CAP,or we can play him one more year with the same CAP implications, or restructure him pushing more of his salary into the voidable years which we will eat in 2025 if we move on from him, or we extend him and get a huge CAP save in 2024 so we can get under the CAP and begin to sign new players - going all in.

Without extending Dak and CeeDee there will be no going all in. If we don't extend Dak, we may as well cut him now because they really can't play him with him knowing he is gone after this year. And, btw, I am not sure CeeDee will agree to an extension either. If that happens, we are forced to pay him $17MM this year against the CAP, and he becomes a free agent at the end of the year. Without CeeDee's extension, making any all-in moves becomes more unlikely.

And if they do cut him loose and go with another QB, what are the options? Trey Lance who lost his job in SF to Brock Purdy and Sam Darnold? a rookie we draft at 24 in the first round? sign a free agent? Who? Josh Dobbs? Kirk Cousins? Sam Darnold? Moving on from Dak means losing seasons for at least the next couple of years, maybe a lot longer. Look at all the teams who drafted QBs and got nowhere. bu,bu,but CJ Stroud?

I just do not understand the logic of people who say they would rather lose constantly as long as Dak is not on the team, than have winning seasons with Dak and at least have a chance to win in the playoffs. I am not crazy about Dak, but I do not want to go through another period of losing seasons because we can't find a QB.

 

[DuncanIso]

#Lance

 

[Ken]

If Dak has not already convinced you that he will not be going on a deep playoff run no matter which players and coaches are now around him, you will never be convinced. He has proven to succeed against very poor clubs (and occasionally against other good teams in the regular season), and will gladly pad stats when leading games. He has proven to start very poorly in most playoff games versus strong(er) competition in higher stakes games.

If you are of the opinion that the early 2000’s Cowboys teams were equal or close to the talent or coaching of the team the past three seasons (but minus a franchise QB)-I’m sorry that you cannot see the profound differences in talent across the whole roster and coaching talent.

I do not understand the intense aversion of moving on to the unproven-considering it will absolutely happen in the next 5-10 seasons either way. QB’s do not suddenly start succeeding in the playoffs after this many seasons (when the team and said QB have never even reached a conference championship game together during that long a tenure).

Yes, I understand that Jones is almost certain to give Dak another mega-extension. I do not understand the celebration that many will have because all it should mean to Cowboys’ fans is an extension of zero deep playoff runs.

I remember when Peyton Manning won the super bowl at age 30 throwing 3 tds and 7 ints in the playoffs and super bowl with a 70 rating.

 

[Blitzen]

I have consistently opposed Dak getting his last contract for $40 million over 4 years with a no trade clause. I would not have done it and I would have let Dak walk in 2021 before I would give him that deal. Jerry franchised him then and should have sought a trade rather than make that deal. I have been firm in my objections. Not only was he not worth the $40 million then, but for only 4 years it guaranteed Dak would be back at the table demanding even more money as we expect he will this year. IMO opinion, as I expressed then, Dak never proved he was worth that kind of money, and the 2019 December Eagles game was a big red flag for me. If Jerry was going to give Dak $40 million, he should have held out for an 8 year agreement so he would not be facing what he is facing now. At least then the $40 million over 8 years would not put the Cowboys in a CAP nightmare. And he never should have agree to a no trade clause.

However, that was then. This is now. Dak got his deal. Jerry restructured it a couple of times pushing $36 MM into voidable years and there is no way around taking a huge CAP hit(dead money) unless Dak gets an extension. Jerry has the same decision now he had in 2021 except he can't trade Dak, he can't put a franchise tag on him, he really can't restructure his deal anymore, and he has no real backup plan. In 2021 if Jerry had traded Dak for a couple of first round picks, I think we would all have been okay. Today, we can cut Dak and get nothing for him, eat $62 MM in dead money while we are $20 MM over the CAP,or we can play him one more year with the same CAP implications, or restructure him pushing more of his salary into the voidable years which we will eat in 2025 if we move on from him, or we extend him and get a huge CAP save in 2024 so we can get under the CAP and begin to sign new players - going all in.

Without extending Dak and CeeDee there will be no going all in. If we don't extend Dak, we may as well cut him now because they really can't play him with him knowing he is gone after this year. And, btw, I am not sure CeeDee will agree to an extension either. If that happens, we are forced to pay him $17MM this year against the CAP, and he becomes a free agent at the end of the year. Without CeeDee's extension, making any all-in moves becomes more unlikely.

And if they do cut him loose and go with another QB, what are the options? Trey Lance who lost his job in SF to Brock Purdy and Sam Darnold? a rookie we draft at 24 in the first round? sign a free agent? Who? Josh Dobbs? Kirk Cousins? Sam Darnold? Moving on from Dak means losing seasons for at least the next couple of years, maybe a lot longer. Look at all the teams who drafted QBs and got nowhere. bu,bu,but CJ Stroud?

I just do not understand the logic of people who say they would rather lose constantly as long as Dak is not on the team, than have winning seasons with Dak and at least have a chance to win in the playoffs. I am not crazy about Dak, but I do not want to go through another period of losing seasons because we can't find a QB.

Constant losing seasons is not guaranteed. Journeyman QB’s can do okay with this roster-just as Geno Smith did okay the past two seasons in Seattle. This is what I mean.

Some questions for you. Do you really believe that those teams that drafted the QB’s failed because of the QB’s or the surrounding talent and coaching? Was Houston pretty competitive in 2022 though they lost lots of games? Did they improve just because of Stroud? Did they add other major pieces and coaching?

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

I have consistently opposed Dak getting his last contract for $40 million over 4 years with a no trade clause. I would not have done it and I would have let Dak walk in 2021 before I would give him that deal. Jerry franchised him then and should have sought a trade rather than make that deal. I have been firm in my objections. Not only was he not worth the $40 million then, but for only 4 years it guaranteed Dak would be back at the table demanding even more money as we expect he will this year. IMO opinion, as I expressed then, Dak never proved he was worth that kind of money, and the 2019 December Eagles game was a big red flag for me. If Jerry was going to give Dak $40 million, he should have held out for an 8 year agreement so he would not be facing what he is facing now. At least then the $40 million over 8 years would not put the Cowboys in a CAP nightmare. And he never should have agree to a no trade clause.

However, that was then. This is now. Dak got his deal. Jerry restructured it a couple of times pushing $36 MM into voidable years and there is no way around taking a huge CAP hit(dead money) unless Dak gets an extension. Jerry has the same decision now he had in 2021 except he can't trade Dak, he can't put a franchise tag on him, he really can't restructure his deal anymore, and he has no real backup plan. In 2021 if Jerry had traded Dak for a couple of first round picks, I think we would all have been okay. Today, we can cut Dak and get nothing for him, eat $62 MM in dead money while we are $20 MM over the CAP,or we can play him one more year with the same CAP implications, or restructure him pushing more of his salary into the voidable years which we will eat in 2025 if we move on from him, or we extend him and get a huge CAP save in 2024 so we can get under the CAP and begin to sign new players - going all in.

Without extending Dak and CeeDee there will be no going all in. If we don't extend Dak, we may as well cut him now because they really can't play him with him knowing he is gone after this year. And, btw, I am not sure CeeDee will agree to an extension either. If that happens, we are forced to pay him $17MM this year against the CAP, and he becomes a free agent at the end of the year. Without CeeDee's extension, making any all-in moves becomes more unlikely.

And if they do cut him loose and go with another QB, what are the options? Trey Lance who lost his job in SF to Brock Purdy and Sam Darnold? a rookie we draft at 24 in the first round? sign a free agent? Who? Josh Dobbs? Kirk Cousins? Sam Darnold? Moving on from Dak means losing seasons for at least the next couple of years, maybe a lot longer. Look at all the teams who drafted QBs and got nowhere. bu,bu,but CJ Stroud?

I just do not understand the logic of people who say they would rather lose constantly as long as Dak is not on the team, than have winning seasons with Dak and at least have a chance to win in the playoffs. I am not crazy about Dak, but I do not want to go through another period of losing seasons because we can't find a QB.

It could be possible there's more to Lance story than just getting beat out. It also looks like Purdy might be a very good QB.

 

[chuck520]

This is another anyone but Dak post that shows an overconfidence in this front office ability to quickly rebuild and get an elite QB

The grass is always greener on the other side. Front office knows what they have and they would rather make the playoffs then be a bottom feeder.

Many of the fans disagree with this and would rather take an all or nothing approach but its not going to happen. You either accept what it is then or you find a new team to cheer.
Football teams do not think the same way as fans do. The fans are emotional and do not think rationally. Front office does not want to take huge risks and end up failing.

Ironically if they did take a big risk and failed the same fans wanting them to do that would be the ones blaming them for it not working out.

The front office knows this and would rather have a playoff contender and continue to improve the team.

 

[Aven8]

I remember when Peyton Manning won the super bowl at age 30 throwing 3 tds and 7 ints in the playoffs and super bowl with a 70 rating.

You actually have a point. I remember that as well. Same with Brady in Tampa. Threw 2-3 picks against GB and they still won. Team game, but Dak has to be better as well.

 

[Nav22]

I remember when Peyton Manning won the super bowl at age 30 throwing 3 tds and 7 ints in the playoffs and super bowl with a 70 rating.

Defense wins championships.

 

[chuck520]

Constant losing seasons is not guaranteed. Journeyman QB’s can do okay with this roster-just as Geno Smith did okay the past two seasons in Seattle. This is what I mean.

Some questions for you. Do you really believe that those teams that drafted the QB’s failed because of the QB’s or the surrounding talent and coaching? Was Houston pretty competitive in 2022 though they lost lots of games? Did they improve just because of Stroud? Did they add other major pieces and coaching?

I know what you are saying but
1) This is unlikely to work
2) This is unlikely to work with this ownership and front office

The early 2000's was an example of how not do things particularly with this front office
They had no plan in place after Aikman, then they threw money at the problem and ended up in cap mess
They drafted bad QB's and were in complete disarray until Parcells stepped in to clean up the mess
The chances of finding a better QB than Dak asap is highly unlikely and they have not drafted a top QB in over 30 years

Why would they repeat the same mistake they made over 20 years ago? To assuage the fickle fans who will turn on them in a second if it doesnt work?

If you are going to do it do it the right way, keep Dak and continue to make the playoffs, try to find a developmental QB that could step in a few years to start after Dak's contract is up
This was the plan originally with Dak in 2016. Tony was suppose to play a few more years then Dak would develop and then become a starter.
Tony got hurt in preseason, Dak came in and went 13-3 NFC East champs. I'm certain no one expected that to happen but the plan was off schedule.
To do it now without a replacement makes no sense other than an emotional need by the fans to find a scapegoat.

Find a replacement now while were winning and then make the transition when the club is good.

 

[HanD]

This is another anyone but Dak post that shows an overconfidence in this front office ability to quickly rebuild and get an elite QB

The grass is always greener on the other side. Front office knows what they have and they would rather make the playoffs then be a bottom feeder.

Many of the fans disagree with this and would rather take an all or nothing approach but its not going to happen. You either accept what it is then or you find a new team to cheer.
Football teams do not think the same way as fans do. The fans are emotional and do not think rationally. Front office does not want to take huge risks and end up failing.

Ironically if they did take a big risk and failed the same fans wanting them to do that would be the ones blaming them for it not working out.

The front office knows this and would rather have a playoff contender and continue to improve the team.

Dallas has as much talent or more than tb, sea, ind, atl, no. They didn't have significant resources at QB and almost made it made the playoffs. Tb accomplished more than us. I don't believe we would be bottom feeders if we moved on and used cap space to improve lb, rb and ol. We would be a playoff contender.

 

[chuck520]

I have consistently opposed Dak getting his last contract for $40 million over 4 years with a no trade clause. I would not have done it and I would have let Dak walk in 2021 before I would give him that deal. Jerry franchised him then and should have sought a trade rather than make that deal. I have been firm in my objections. Not only was he not worth the $40 million then, but for only 4 years it guaranteed Dak would be back at the table demanding even more money as we expect he will this year. IMO opinion, as I expressed then, Dak never proved he was worth that kind of money, and the 2019 December Eagles game was a big red flag for me. If Jerry was going to give Dak $40 million, he should have held out for an 8 year agreement so he would not be facing what he is facing now. At least then the $40 million over 8 years would not put the Cowboys in a CAP nightmare. And he never should have agree to a no trade clause.

However, that was then. This is now. Dak got his deal. Jerry restructured it a couple of times pushing $36 MM into voidable years and there is no way around taking a huge CAP hit(dead money) unless Dak gets an extension. Jerry has the same decision now he had in 2021 except he can't trade Dak, he can't put a franchise tag on him, he really can't restructure his deal anymore, and he has no real backup plan. In 2021 if Jerry had traded Dak for a couple of first round picks, I think we would all have been okay. Today, we can cut Dak and get nothing for him, eat $62 MM in dead money while we are $20 MM over the CAP,or we can play him one more year with the same CAP implications, or restructure him pushing more of his salary into the voidable years which we will eat in 2025 if we move on from him, or we extend him and get a huge CAP save in 2024 so we can get under the CAP and begin to sign new players - going all in.

Without extending Dak and CeeDee there will be no going all in. If we don't extend Dak, we may as well cut him now because they really can't play him with him knowing he is gone after this year. And, btw, I am not sure CeeDee will agree to an extension either. If that happens, we are forced to pay him $17MM this year against the CAP, and he becomes a free agent at the end of the year. Without CeeDee's extension, making any all-in moves becomes more unlikely.

And if they do cut him loose and go with another QB, what are the options? Trey Lance who lost his job in SF to Brock Purdy and Sam Darnold? a rookie we draft at 24 in the first round? sign a free agent? Who? Josh Dobbs? Kirk Cousins? Sam Darnold? Moving on from Dak means losing seasons for at least the next couple of years, maybe a lot longer. Look at all the teams who drafted QBs and got nowhere. bu,bu,but CJ Stroud?

I just do not understand the logic of people who say they would rather lose constantly as long as Dak is not on the team, than have winning seasons with Dak and at least have a chance to win in the playoffs. I am not crazy about Dak, but I do not want to go through another period of losing seasons because we can't find a QB.

Its an emotional argument the anti Dak people are making because he failed in the playoffs
However, he isnt the only QB that has ever done that in the playoffs

They want a scapegoat. They think anyone against this are Dak fans when in reality they are just fans of the team and want the team to win.

 

[chuck520]

Dallas has as much talent or more than tb, sea, ind, atl, no. They didn't have significant resources at QB and almost made it made the playoffs. Tb accomplished more than us. I don't believe we would be bottom feeders if we moved on and used cap space to improve lb, rb and ol. We would be a playoff contender.

I dont think so, they have major holes to fill in the run game, run defense and offensive line. You cant win in the playoffs if you cant run or stop the run and they were exposed. Dak and the passing game covered up the holes most of the year.

 

[Blitzen]

This is another anyone but Dak post that shows an overconfidence in this front office ability to quickly rebuild and get an elite QB

The grass is always greener on the other side. Front office knows what they have and they would rather make the playoffs then be a bottom feeder.

Many of the fans disagree with this and would rather take an all or nothing approach but its not going to happen. You either accept what it is then or you find a new team to cheer.
Football teams do not think the same way as fans do. The fans are emotional and do not think rationally. Front office does not want to take huge risks and end up failing.

Ironically if they did take a big risk and failed the same fans wanting them to do that would be the ones blaming them for it not working out.

The front office knows this and would rather have a playoff contender and continue to improve the team.

No, I never expressed confidence in the front office building or rebuilding. I expressed confidence in the position that the Cowboys and Dak have a proven track record and trend in the playoffs. My question is with regards to how fans defend trying to hold onto a failing foundation-with regards to the postseason.

Why would you as a fan of the team wish for more one and done seasons? Are you afraid the team’s success will plummet without Dak?

I already predicted the Cowboys would extend Dak. I have accepted it even if I disagree with the decision. We are not the front office trying to make money off the squad-so of course we can wish for different. Other front offices have moved on from successful QB’s making the playoffs routinely. Not all front offices adopt the run it back till the wheels fall off (if the team is at least making the playoffs).

 

[Blitzen]

You actually have a point. I remember that as well. Same with Brady in Tampa. Threw 2-3 picks against GB and they still won. Team game, but Dak has to be better as well.

It’s true that older QB’s have had success later in their careers. Did Brady and Peyton Manning have deep playoff runs prior to their ultimate achievement? Is it absurd to compare and contrast Dak with those QB’s and where they stand in their career arc?

 

[chuck520]

No, I never expressed confidence in the front office building or rebuilding. I expressed confidence in the position that the Cowboys and Dak have a proven track record and trend in the playoffs. My question is with regards to how fans defend trying to hold onto a failing foundation-with regards to the postseason.

Why would you as a fan of the team wish for more one and done seasons? Are you afraid the team’s success will plummet without Dak?

I already predicted the Cowboys would extend Dak. I have accepted it even if I disagree with the decision. We are not the front office trying to make money off the squad-so of course we can wish for different. Other front offices have moved on from successful QB’s making the playoffs routinely. Not all front offices adopt the run it back till the wheels fall off (if the team is at least making the playoffs).

They had the same problem before Dak in the playoffs so the solution in another QB, which is unlikely you find someone better asap, you have the same result

This goes back 28 years, How many years has Dak been the QB of those?

 

[Aven8]

It’s true that older QB’s have had success later in their careers. Did Brady and Peyton Manning have deep playoff runs prior to their ultimate achievement? Is it absurd to compare and contrast Dak with those QB’s and where they stand in their career arc?

Oh I don’t think they are comparable at all. Dak has done nothing. If they gave a trophy for beating NFC East teams he would be the world champ. But they don’t. My point is it’s the ultimate team game. Mahomes won the first half at Balty last week and his defense won the second half.

 

[MojaveJT]

I remember when Peyton Manning won the super bowl at age 30 throwing 3 tds and 7 ints in the playoffs and super bowl with a 70 rating.

Peyton’s contract gave Denver the ability to have an elite defense.

If we want to draft and money to sign FA’s to get an elite defense somewhere else has to give.