Electromagnetic Launch System

[SaltwaterServr]

I think it was here that we debated the Navy's electromagnetic launch system for aircraft carriers. I forget what the issues were, but it's being implemented on the new Ford Class carriers.

http://www.defencetalk.com/construction-begins-on-navy-newest-cvn-79-aircraft-carrier-32429/

And an article from last December about the first launch of a plane.

http://www.defencetalk.com/navy-launches-first-aircraft-using-electromagnetic-system-30747/

 

[ologan]

Sounds impressive,Salty. It just seems to me that it would be more elaborate and intricate than the old steam generated system they employ now,and frankly more to go wrong.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Sounds impressive,Salty. It just seems to me that it would be more elaborate and intricate than the old steam generated system they employ now,and frankly more to go wrong.

There are far less moving parts. Actually there is far less everything. It's smaller and lighter. There is less that can go wrong with the new systems. Sort of like the difference between spinning platter hard drives and SSD (Solid State Disks) They are less likely to fail, because there is less moving parts.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

There are far less moving parts. Actually there is far less everything. It's smaller and lighter. There is less that can go wrong with the new systems. Sort of like the difference between spinning platter hard drives and SSD (Solid State Disks) They are less likely to fail, because there is less moving parts.

Bingo. Less moving parts, and they can shoot heavier loads with it. Not sure if it matters if they are shooting larger planes in general, or they can shoot larger planes off of smaller decks such as some of the pocket carriers the Marines have.

 

[burmafrd]

The Navy has for a long time looked at alternatives to the steam catapult. Nothing outside of this had any possible hope. And it took about 20 years of R & D to make it work.

 

[YosemiteSam]

The Navy has for a long time looked at alternatives to the steam catapult. Nothing outside of this had any possible hope. And it took about 20 years of R & D to make it work.

The funny thing is they have been using this type of technology in roller coasters for well over a decade. :laugh2:

 

[ologan]

how much electrical power do they need to operate? Just curious. If there was a failure of power due to an EMP or whatever,how would they work?

 

[burmafrd]

You are talking about moving an object weighing up to 40 tons from 0 to over 150 MPH in the space of a few hundred feet. That takes a whole lot of power.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

how much electrical power do they need to operate? Just curious. If there was a failure of power due to an EMP or whatever,how would they work?

That was my first thought. Some day we need an entire thread on EMP, especially with solar activity ramping up soon.

 

[joseephuss]

The funny thing is they have been using this type of technology in roller coasters for well over a decade. :laugh2:

It is possible that the use on roller coasters came about as an off shoot of the research and development for launching planes. Typical that some ideas that start in the military realm end up being used in civil arena and vice versa.

 

[joseephuss]

how much electrical power do they need to operate? Just curious. If there was a failure of power due to an EMP or whatever,how would they work?

Well, if it is a powerful EMP it will take out the systems on the planes anyway.

 

[joseephuss]

You are talking about moving an object weighing up to 40 tons from 0 to over 150 MPH in the space of a few hundred feet. That takes a whole lot of power.

Which planes weigh 40 tons? More specifically, which ones are used on carriers?

Here is a pic of a C-130 on a carrier:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0097.shtml

 

[SaltwaterServr]

That was my first thought. Some day we need an entire thread on EMP, especially with solar activity ramping up soon.

I'm working on some research for that very subject right now. Suffice it to say, once you get past the basic effects that it has on anything not solid state, the physics of it take over most discussions.

It's a lot like discussing nuclear blasts, atmospheric bomb blasts in this case, and what their effects are. You get the heat, the overpressure, gamma ray burst, a whole lot of destruction out to X miles, and then the residual effects.

Same with space based EMP's. Blast at over 600 miles up in space, the effects are affected by Earth's magnetic field, everything not shielded or solid state becomes a paper weight, and then there's the after effects on humans and the world wide economy.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I'm working on some research for that very subject right now. Suffice it to say, once you get past the basic effects that it has on anything not solid state, the physics of it take over most discussions.

It's a lot like discussing nuclear blasts, atmospheric bomb blasts in this case, and what their effects are. You get the heat, the overpressure, gamma ray burst, a whole lot of destruction out to X miles, and then the residual effects.

Same with space based EMP's. Blast at over 600 miles up in space, the effects are affected by Earth's magnetic field, everything not shielded or solid state becomes a paper weight, and then there's the after effects on humans and the world wide economy.

Yeah, I first learned about EMP when studying the Cold War. One day last summer when it was 105 degrees out and I had nothing going on, I for some reason watched The Day After and Threads on Youtube -- nice uplifting stuff there -- and became almost obsessed with studying everything I could find about the period from WWII to the fall of the USSR, especially the nuclear aspects. (That's another one we need a really long thread on.) It's amazing that one 20 or so megaton burst at altitude over Kansas would knock out basically all electricity in the country and render most microelectronics useless. And the Soviets had them ready to go, too.

I'm going to start that thread soon, because I know there are several military people here who probably have some great stories. Makes you realize we're all lucky to still be here.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Which planes weigh 40 tons? More specifically, which ones are used on carriers?

Here is a pic of a C-130 on a carrier:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0097.shtml

Uh, not sure if you were trying to be sarcastic, but that KC-130 was over 60 tons when loaded and shot off using the steam catapult. The lowest weight ratings of those tests were over 40 tons.

The limitations of the system are going to be the wingspan of the airframe touching down on the deck, as it needs room to avoid the command island.

Just a wild *** guess, but a C-17 might be able to do a landing on the Ford Class, her wing radius is 85 feet from centerline. The Globemaster's range is 2400 nmi, and her empty weight is over 140 tons.

Fully loaded, she weighs in at over 290 tons.

Being able to drop that much equipment and supplies on a carrier deck has certain strategic advantages, but it also has tactical disadvantages, namely she's taking up damn near the whole flight deck's operational area while on board. You could taxi her to the secondary runway area (no idea what it's called) and resume normal flight operations that way, but she's still a monster taking up a lot of space while you unload her.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Yeah, I first learned about EMP when studying the Cold War. One day last summer when it was 105 degrees out and I had nothing going on, I for some reason watched The Day After and Threads on Youtube -- nice uplifting stuff there -- and became almost obsessed with studying everything I could find about the period from WWII to the fall of the USSR, especially the nuclear aspects. (That's another one we need a really long thread on.) It's amazing that one 20 or so megaton burst at altitude over Kansas would knock out basically all electricity in the country and render most microelectronics useless. And the Soviets had them ready to go, too.

I'm going to start that thread soon, because I know there are several military people here who probably have some great stories. Makes you realize we're all lucky to still be here.

Ach du liebe, I need to proof read before I submit. Substitute "vacuum tube" for solid state in my previous post.

You could knock out most of the US with less that 5 megatons, in a single blast over south/central Canada near the border. Catch the right reflection and you could possibly get it down with 1.2 or 1.5 MT.

That's why a state with a single warhead and a "ballistic" missile is such a threat to the US. Ramp up the size of the missile to achieve escape velocity, shoot the warhead up 600 miles, and let her pop. Most of the orbiting satellites are wiped out in the general blast area, communications and otherwise including GPS and GLONASS, and the EMP does it's thing against our nation without the flight path ever entering US or Canadian concern.

Remember though, Iran was just putting up its first "research" satellite for scientific purposes. No other reason. None. Not at all. Trust us, we wouldn't lie to the international community, ever.

The domino effect on our grid would take over as long as you get about 1/2 of the grid knocked out with the initial EMP. It would take a decade to repair everything.

You probably came across it already, but do a little research on Starfish Prime and related high altitude tests by the US, and K1 tests by the Soviets.

Wikipedia can give you a quick and dirty on the physics of the E1, E2, and E3 phases, but is pretty useless after that.

 

[burmafrd]

To start with getting something up to 600 miles is a whole lot harder than you think it is. Second to get that up there with a warhead that size, it has to be a very sophisticated overall system. which is why NK and Iran and company are not capable of it and will not be for many years.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Oh yeah... Read all about Starfish Prime and the Soviet tests. Many suspect the pulse from one of their tests knocked out one of their nearby test launches scheduled for a few days later.

That's why a state with a single warhead and a "ballistic" missile is such a threat to the US. Ramp up the size of the missile to achieve escape velocity, shoot the warhead up 600 miles, and let her pop. Most of the orbiting satellites are wiped out in the general blast area, communications and otherwise including GPS and GLONASS, and the EMP does it's thing against our nation without the flight path ever entering US or Canadian concern.

What do you mean... Are you just talking about causing chaos by knocking out a lot of the services we depend on, like TV, cell phones, GPS, etc? Not true EMP, right?

And like burm said, fortunately it takes a true thermonuclear device to attain multi-megaton yields, and none of these rogue countries are going to be able to achieve that anytime soon.

Realistically, I'm more worried about EMP from solar activity. Hard to believe that in 1859, solar-created EMP caused telegraph papers to catch on fire!... Imagine if something like that happened today. And we know it will at some point.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Oh yeah... Read all about Starfish Prime and the Soviet tests. Many suspect the pulse from one of their tests knocked out one of their nearby test launches scheduled for a few days later.



What do you mean... Are you just talking about causing chaos by knocking out a lot of the services we depend on, like TV, cell phones, GPS, etc? Not true EMP, right?

And like burm said, fortunately it takes a true thermonuclear device to attain multi-megaton yields, and none of these rogue countries are going to be able to achieve that anytime soon.

Realistically, I'm more worried about EMP from solar activity. Hard to believe that in 1859, solar-created EMP caused telegraph papers to catch on fire!... Imagine if something like that happened today. And we know it will at some point.

No, more like a high orbit EMP blast from a thermonuclear device. IIRC, our W-56 warheads from the early 60's had 1.2-1.5 MT output. Weren't even that big really, right around 4 feet tall.

Getting it up that high knocks out all of satellites between the blast origin and the upper atmosphere. Since nothing orbits up that high, you're taking out a good chunk of the sky with the blast. The blast then moves through the atmosphere and sets every dang power station and junction site on fire, like the Ruskies had problems with on their first K1 test.

North Korea I'm not too worried about. Iran, well, that's a different story. Then again, their choice of first target would likely be Tel Aviv. Like burma said, even getting something that high to reach the best EMP blast effects is a monstrous challenge in and of itself.

Moving past that, I think there was another solar EMP issue right around the turn of the century, maybe 1895-1905 range. I'd have to check my notes on it. The one in 1859, (or was it 60/61?) was MASSIVE. No doubt an X class flare that nailed our little rock dead on. If memory serves, it occurred right after a Confederate victory and the Northern Lights being so far south were taken as a sign by Confederate troops that the heavens were celebrating the victory with them.

That had to put it somewhere between Manasas and Chancellorsville. My guess being a very early battle.