Past Wasted Nonsense Talk of "Long Speed"

[SFloridaCowboy]

For a couple of months, I kept reading crticism of certain highly rated players, claiming they did not have "long speed." This term was unjustifiably and improperly placed against Patrick Surtain and Jaycee Horn. Too many posters impersonated "experts" in bemoaning these two players' lack of speed in the 40.

Well, both Suratin and Horn posted great 40 times at each's Pro-Day. I woud be fine with either at 10.

Surtain is way advanced, due to learning from his father, an excellent former CB for the Miami Dolphins. Book me the Tide Two at CB for the 2021 Dallas Cowboys.

Sign Jarran Reed. Trade into late first round and take Richie Grant.

 

[kskboys]

For a couple of months, I kept reading crticism of certain highly rated players, claiming they did not have "long speed." This term was unjustifiably and improperly placed against Patrick Surtain and Jaycee Horn. Too many posters impersonated "experts" in bemoaning these two players' lack of speed in the 40.

Well, both Suratin and Horn posted great 40 times at each's Pro-Day. I woud be fine with either at 10.

Surtain is way advanced, due to learning from his father, an excellent former CB for the Miami Dolphins. Book me the Tide Two at CB for the 2021 Dallas Cowboys.

Sign Jarran Reed. Trade into late first round and take Richie Grant.

Who claimed that Surtain lacks long speed? I've never heard that of him. His scouting report says nothing of the sort.

 

[SFloridaCowboy]

In this forum, posters quoted from various scouting reports using that term.

 

[cnuball21]

It’s never been about just long speed, it’s been about overall athleticism. Surtain and Horn had nice 40 times at their pro days but those have historically been all over the place.

Add in the fact that neither did the short shuttle / 3 cone which is huge for CBs IMO and my concerns are the same they were a month ago.

I really like both players, but not at 10...especially not Horn.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

It’s never been about just long speed, it’s been about overall athleticism. Surtain and Horn had nice 40 times at their pro days but those have historically been all over the place.

Add in the fact that neither did the short shuttle / 3 cone which is huge for CBs IMO and my concerns are the same they were a month ago.

I really like both players, but not at 10...especially not Horn.

Right, I can't recall ever reading a scouting report that showed zero negatives. Even Trevor Lawrence's. You judge the overall player, and then you also have to judge how he fits on your team. For example, if you ran a zone defense 100% of the time, then a cornerback doesn't have to be able play tight man coverage, because he'll never have to do that on your team. (Not that any team plays zone 100% of the time, obviously). Richard Sherman never had "blazing" speed, but was a top corner for years. So if speed was what mattered most to Seattle they would never have drafted Sherman. But they did and were very successful defensively, especially in their 2 SB appearances.

The draft isn't a cut and dried process, and players don't always turn out like their draft rating would indicate....

 

[Risen Star]

Wait until he learns there's a difference between 40 times and game speed.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Wait until he learns there's a difference between 40 times and game speed.

He needs to watch some Drew Pearson film, not great speed supposedly but he sure had some long touchdown receptions. Of course a skinny guy like him being chased by some big safety who wanted to crush him does tend to make you run faster....

 

[cnuball21]

Right, I can't recall ever reading a scouting report that showed zero negatives. Even Trevor Lawrence's. You judge the overall player, and then you also have to judge how he fits on your team. For example, if you ran a zone defense 100% of the time, then a cornerback doesn't have to be able play tight man coverage, because he'll never have to do that on your team. (Not that any team plays zone 100% of the time, obviously). Richard Sherman never had "blazing" speed, but was a top corner for years. So if speed was what mattered most to Seattle they would never have drafted Sherman. But they did and were very successful defensively, especially in their 2 SB appearances.

The draft isn't a cut and dried process, and players don't always turn out like their draft rating would indicate....

I agree 100%...but for certain positions there are certain negatives which should be blinking red lights. Everyone loves to bring up Richard Sherman but he's more of an outlier than the norm. We could do that for every position.

If you look across some of the best CBs in football right now (Ramsey / Humphrey / White / GIlmore / Alexander / Howard) everyone but Howard had a sub 4.5 40 and a sub 7 second 3 cone.

It's not Surtain's fault he doesn't have a combine this year to post official numbers but its also fair for some of us to be skeptical as well.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

I agree 100%...but for certain positions there are certain negatives which should be blinking red lights. Everyone loves to bring up Richard Sherman but he's more of an outlier than the norm. We could do that for every position.

If you look across some of the best CBs in football right now (Ramsey / Humphrey / White / GIlmore / Alexander / Howard) everyone but Howard had a sub 4.5 40 and a sub 7 second 3 cone.

It's not Surtain's fault he doesn't have a combine this year to post official numbers but its also fair for some of us to be skeptical as well.

If we're talking Surtain having 4.6 or such speed, yeah that's a big question. But 40 times vary, and they don't play in shorts, once you put on 20 lbs of gear you have to have the strength to haul that around. I read somewhere Jim Brown could run a 9.5 hundred with or without pads, but most backs couldn't.

I'm just saying don't draft a cornerback just because he doesn't have sub 4.5 speed, there is way more that goes into being a successful NFL cornerback than speed. To me Surtain as a better positive vs negative ratio than Farley or Horn....

 

[cnuball21]

If we're talking Surtain having 4.6 or such speed, yeah that's a big question. But 40 times vary, and they don't play in shorts, once you put on 20 lbs of gear you have to have the strength to haul that around. I read somewhere Jim Brown could run a 9.5 hundred with or without pads, but most backs couldn't.

I'm just saying don't draft a cornerback just because he doesn't have sub 4.5 speed, there is way more that goes into being a successful NFL cornerback than speed. To me Surtain as a better positive vs negative ratio than Farley or Horn....

Sure, I"m not going to let the combine alone be the only reason I pick or don't pick a guy...but I"m also not going to ignore data that shows a direct correlation between certain drills / times and success.

The closer I am to the top 10 the more it ALL matters...which is why I"m not high on Surtain or Horn at 10.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Sure, I"m not going to let the combine alone be the only reason I pick or don't pick a guy...but I"m also not going to ignore data that shows a direct correlation between certain drills / times and success.

The closer I am to the top 10 the more it ALL matters...which is why I"m not high on Surtain or Horn at 10.

Understand. Don't agree, but we'll see what the Cowboys do....

 

[kskboys]

In this forum, posters quoted from various scouting reports using that term.

No joke? They need to switch info sources. That's silly.

 

[RonnieT24]

First of all I thought the problem with Surtain was his short area burst not his long speed. Or do people not know the difference? My guess is that being a longer guy Surtain is far more likely to have issues with short area quickness than top end speed. While I pretty much dismiss all pro-day clockings his time was at least serviceable especially considering the rest of his toolset. Maybe he's not the guy you want trying to run with Tyreke Hill but there aren't that many guys with those kind of jets in the league. Ironically Anthony Brown has that kind of speed but his coverage skills leave much to be desired. Which would you rather have? A corner with 4.3 speed, like Brown, who can't cover anybody half the time or a corner with 4.5 speed, like Surtain, who can cover 90% of the guys in the league most of the time?

 

[RonnieT24]

No joke? They need to switch info sources. That's silly.

Indeed ... listen to Bryan Broaddus on the The Fan or catch the Dallas Cowboys Draft show on their website. Those guys are far more informative than the talking heads on the letter networks. Dane Brugler is a reincarnation of Mel Kiper Jr. .. you may as well call him Mel Kiper Junior Junior.

 

[kskboys]

First of all I thought the problem with Surtain was his short area burst not his long speed. Or do people not know the difference? My guess is that being a longer guy Surtain is far more likely to have issues with short area quickness than top end speed. While I pretty much dismiss all pro-day clockings his time was at least serviceable especially considering the rest of his toolset. Maybe he's not the guy you want trying to run with Tyreke Hill but there aren't that many guys with those kind of jets in the league. Ironically Anthony Brown has that kind of speed but his coverage skills leave much to be desired. Which would you rather have? A corner with 4.3 speed, like Brown, who can't cover anybody half the time or a corner with 4.5 speed, like Surtain, who can cover 90% of the guys in the league most of the time?

I have found that most don't seem to have a clue about short area burst, lateral agility, burst out of the breaks, phone booth quickness, light feet, or most scouting terms.

 

[kskboys]

Indeed ... listen to Bryan Broaddus on the The Fan or catch the Dallas Cowboys Draft show on their website. Those guys are far more informative than the talking heads on the letter networks. Dane Brugler is a reincarnation of Mel Kiper Jr. .. you may as well call him Mel Kiper Junior Junior.

Surtain's long speed is one of his primary assets. And he's quite fluid for a 6-2 guy. Plus, the dude is simply a football player.

Get this: He allowed 21 completions for 273 yds for the season.

Also not widely understood is calling someone a football player, or the difference. Byron Jones was never a football player. He was an athlete who learned to play football. He doesn't have a knack for it. Surtain is full of knack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cnuball21]

Understand. Don't agree, but we'll see what the Cowboys do....

Sure, perfectly fine to see it different ways. That's what makes the boards fun.

 

[cnuball21]

First of all I thought the problem with Surtain was his short area burst not his long speed. Or do people not know the difference? My guess is that being a longer guy Surtain is far more likely to have issues with short area quickness than top end speed. While I pretty much dismiss all pro-day clockings his time was at least serviceable especially considering the rest of his toolset. Maybe he's not the guy you want trying to run with Tyreke Hill but there aren't that many guys with those kind of jets in the league. Ironically Anthony Brown has that kind of speed but his coverage skills leave much to be desired. Which would you rather have? A corner with 4.3 speed, like Brown, who can't cover anybody half the time or a corner with 4.5 speed, like Surtain, who can cover 90% of the guys in the league most of the time?

I hope our scouts know the difference...long speed and short area quickness for a CB are both huge. A 4.4 means nothing if the dude has stiff hips and lacks lateral agility.

The studs in the NFL can run and can flip their hips and mirror.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Sure, perfectly fine to see it different ways. That's what makes the boards fun.

Can't you just see it now?

"With the 10th pick in the draft the Dallas Cowboys select K.J. Costello, QB, Mississippi State"

Hey Dak worked out, the more Mississippi State guys the better!

 

[cnuball21]

Can't you just see it now?

"With the 10th pick in the draft the Dallas Cowboys select K.J. Costello, QB, Mississippi State"

Hey Dak worked out, the more Mississippi State guys the better!

HAHAHA...I think we'd agree that would NOT be a good move.