Who knows TV's well? Have a few questions.

[Teren_Kanan]

Been searching for a new HDTV. Getting something anywhere between 50-60 inches.

LED? LCD? or Plasma?

As I browsed a lot of different stores I noticed a lot of the HDTV's had this grainy look that I didn't like at all. A lot of the TV's I see at friends houses have this same grainy look to them. Yet some TV's i see are super Crisp and clear edged when it comes to picture quality. What am I looking for if I want that crisp picture quality?
I thought maybe it's just cause they are display models, but seeing so many friends HDTV's have the exact same grainy look makes me wonder.

All the TV's I'm looking at are 1080p, and I don't really see any other stat that would be the difference either. Sometimes the price doesn't even reflect the difference. There are expensive ones that look really grainy, and cheaper ones that look super crisp.

How much does the refresh rate matter? Is 120hz good? I've seen some that seem to go way higher.

Any information would be helpful.

 

[Hoss]

It all depends on what kind of signal your putting into your TV, I have Directv and I didntt have the HD package, it looked grainy. If I watched either Blu-Ray or over the air TV, it looked great. Got the HD and its awesome

Its all about the quaility of the signal going into your tv.

Oh yeah, go LED-you wont be disappointed at all.

 

[Hoss]

Shopping for a television these days is certainly not as easy as it once was. With terms being tossed around like HDTV, Progressive Scan, 1080p, Frame Rate, and Screen Refresh Rate, the consumer is getting drowned with tech terms that are difficult to sort through. Of these terms, two of the most difficult to make sense of are Frame Rate and Refresh Rate.

What Frames Are

In video (both analog and high definition), just as in film, images are displayed as Frames. However, there are differences in the way the frames are displayed on a television screen. In terms of traditional video content, in NTSC-based countries there are 30 separate frames displayed every second (1 complete frame every 1/30th of a second), while in PAL-based countries, there are 25 separate frames displayed every second (1 complete frame displayed every 25th of a second). These frames are either displayed using the Interlaced Scan method or the Progressive Scan method.

However, since film is shot at 24 frames per second (1 complete frame displayed every 24th of a second), in order to display film on a typical television screen, the original 24 frames must be converted to 30 frames by a process known as 3:2 pulldown.

What Refresh Rate Means

With the introduction of television display technologies, such LCD, Plasma, and DLP, and also Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, another factor has entered into play that affects how frames of video content are displayed on a screen: Refresh Rate. Refresh rate represents how many times the actual Television screen image is completely reconstructed every second. The idea is that the more times the screen is "refreshed" every second, the smoother the image is in terms of motion rendering and flicker reduction.

In other words, the image looks better the faster the screen can refresh itself. Refresh rates of televisions and other types of video displayed are measured in "hz" (Hertz). For example: A Television with a 60hz refresh rate represents complete reconstruction of the screen image 60 times every second. As a result, this also means that each video frame (in a 30 frame per second signal) is repeated twice every 60th of a second. By looking at the math, one can easily figure out how other frames rates related to other refresh rates.

Frame Rate vs Refresh Rate

What makes things confusing is the concept of how many separate and discreet frames are displayed every second, verses how many times the frame is repeated every 1/24th, 1/25, or 1/30th of a second to match the refresh rate of the Television display.

TVs have their own screen refresh capabilities. A television's screen refresh rate is usually listed in the user manual or on the manufaturer's product web page.

The most common refresh rate for today's Televisions are 60hz for NTSC-based systems and 50hz for PAL-based systems. However, with the introduction of some Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players that can actually output a 24 frame per second video signal, instead of the traditional 30 frame per second video signal, new refresh rates are being implemented by some television display makers to accommodate these signals in the correct mathematical ratio.

If you have a TV with a 120hz refresh rate that is 1080p/24 compatible (1920 pixels across the screen vs 1080 pixels down the screen, with a 24 frame per second rate). The TV ends up displaying 24 separate frames every second, but repeats each frame according to the refresh rate of the TV. In the case of 120hz each frame would be displayed 5 times within each 24th of a second.

In other words, even with higher refresh rates, there are still only 24 separate frames displayed every second, but they may need to be displayed multiple times, depending on the refresh rate.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 120hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 5 times every 24th of a second.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 72hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 3 times every 24th of a second.

To display 30 frames per second on a TV with a 60 hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 2 times every 30th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 50 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 2 times every 25th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 100 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 4 times every 25th of a second.

NOTE: The above explanation is with pure frame rates. If the TV also has to do a 24 frame per second to 30 frame per second or vice versa frame rate conversion, then you also have to deal with 3:2 or 2:3 Pulldown, which adds more math. 3:2 pulldown can also be performed by a DVD or Blu-ray Disc player, or other source device, before the signal reaches the TV. For more details, check out an explanation posted by HH Gregg.

How TVs Handle 1080p/24

If a TV is 1080p/60 or 1080p/30 - only compatible, it would not accept the 1080p/24 input. Currently, only Blu-ray Discs and HD-DVD discs are the main sources of 1080p/24 material. However, most Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players convert the outgoing signal to either 1080p/60 or 1080i/30 so that the information can be processed by a TV properly for screen display if it is not compatible with 1080p/24.

NOTE: Although 1080p/60-only TVs cannot display 1080p/24 - 1080p/24 TVs can display 1080p/60 via video processing.

Final Take

The whole thing boils down to the concept of separate frames vs repeated frames. In the case of frame rate vs refresh rate calculations, repeated frames are not considered separate frames as the information in the repeated frames is identical. It is when you move to a frame with different information that you count it as a new frame.

With more sophisticated technologies being employed in today's HDTVs, it is important that consumers arm themselves with the knowledge of what is important and what isn't. With HDTV, the concept of Screen Refresh Rate is indeed important, but don't get bogged down with the numbers.

The important thing to take into consideration is how the increase in Refresh Rate improves, or doesn't improve, the perceived screen image quality for you, the consumer. Let your own eyes be your guide as you comparison shop for your next television.

 

[big dog cowboy]

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200145&highlight=television

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187384&highlight=television

There are some ideas. Hopes this helps.

 

[Teren_Kanan]

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200145&highlight=television

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187384&highlight=television

There are some ideas. Hopes this helps.

Thanks.

Both of those threads a more about specific TV's, brands, or pricing on TV's though.

I was more curious as to what makes the difference between the grainy and crisp looking, when it came to TV's.

Thanks for the post Hoss. So basically the TV's in the stores aren't hooked up to good HD sources, and my friends probably don't have HD cables or aren't using HD sources?

Only thing I find odd is that I can look at two TV's in a Best Buy next to each other, one is grainy one isn't, both displaying the same thing. I would assume they would be displaying from the same source? Maybe I'm wrong.

So basically so long as I have a decent quality TV, the grain look has more to do with what I hook it up with, than the actual TV?

 

[Hoss]

for the most part, yes--signal is the key to HDTV, for the most part any good quaility TV will be good.

 

[Kevinicus]

Thanks.

Both of those threads a more about specific TV's, brands, or pricing on TV's though.

I was more curious as to what makes the difference between the grainy and crisp looking, when it came to TV's.

Thanks for the post Hoss. So basically the TV's in the stores aren't hooked up to good HD sources, and my friends probably don't have HD cables or aren't using HD sources?

Only thing I find odd is that I can look at two TV's in a Best Buy next to each other, one is grainy one isn't, both displaying the same thing. I would assume they would be displaying from the same source? Maybe I'm wrong.

So basically so long as I have a decent quality TV, the grain look has more to do with what I hook it up with, than the actual TV?

1. Source - This will be the biggest determining factor of "grain." Higher compression in a source will result in a less crisp image (which may be confused for grain). Most anything shot on film will have varying amounts of grain. Directors will choose different kinds of film depending on the look they want for their movie/show and the amount of grain they want.

2. Settings - There are various settings in tvs relating to noise and gamma in a set. These can affect the amount of grain in the picture...or at least how visible the grain is. I'd recommend turning any noise reduction settings to OFF, and most likely reducing any gamma settings to close to zero.

This really isn't something that should determine a purchase IMO since all HDTVs can and will have grain given the right source and/or settings. All HDTVs can look very crisp with the right source/settings (obviously though some will be better than others).

And to be clear, a source with grain isn't a bad source (most likely). If the source was shot with a grainy medium, and that's how it was intended to look, then the grain is natural, and proper. Efforts to reduce the grain will usually result in a loss of picture quality and detail in the image (A major reason for the recommendation to turn noise reduction settings to OFF). Google the blu-ray for Predator. The original pressing of the movie had a poor transfer with excessive grain. People complained, and the studio released a new transfer and when they did they used an excessive amount of noise reduction which resulted in a massive loss of fine detail and a picture with characters so smooth that they often times looked fake.

 

[speedkilz88]

Comparing TVs in store are usually pretty useless. Most aren't set up right.

 

[CliffnDallas]

Comparing TVs in store are usually pretty useless. Most aren't set up right.

Exactly. I just bought a 47inch LCD HDTV and when I was doing the setup it asked if the display was for home or store display. I think Hos's post answered most of your questions, the TV I bought is 1080p and 120hz and I can tell the differance form my old 720p 60hz set. Happy viewing.

And why do they call it a "TV set" if you only get one?

 

[Teren_Kanan]

Thanks for all the replies. Appreciate it.

 

[tupperware]

Shopping for a television these days is certainly not as easy as it once was. With terms being tossed around like HDTV, Progressive Scan, 1080p, Frame Rate, and Screen Refresh Rate, the consumer is getting drowned with tech terms that are difficult to sort through. Of these terms, two of the most difficult to make sense of are Frame Rate and Refresh Rate.

What Frames Are

In video (both analog and high definition), just as in film, images are displayed as Frames. However, there are differences in the way the frames are displayed on a television screen. In terms of traditional video content, in NTSC-based countries there are 30 separate frames displayed every second (1 complete frame every 1/30th of a second), while in PAL-based countries, there are 25 separate frames displayed every second (1 complete frame displayed every 25th of a second). These frames are either displayed using the Interlaced Scan method or the Progressive Scan method.

However, since film is shot at 24 frames per second (1 complete frame displayed every 24th of a second), in order to display film on a typical television screen, the original 24 frames must be converted to 30 frames by a process known as 3:2 pulldown.

What Refresh Rate Means

With the introduction of television display technologies, such LCD, Plasma, and DLP, and also Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, another factor has entered into play that affects how frames of video content are displayed on a screen: Refresh Rate. Refresh rate represents how many times the actual Television screen image is completely reconstructed every second. The idea is that the more times the screen is "refreshed" every second, the smoother the image is in terms of motion rendering and flicker reduction.

In other words, the image looks better the faster the screen can refresh itself. Refresh rates of televisions and other types of video displayed are measured in "hz" (Hertz). For example: A Television with a 60hz refresh rate represents complete reconstruction of the screen image 60 times every second. As a result, this also means that each video frame (in a 30 frame per second signal) is repeated twice every 60th of a second. By looking at the math, one can easily figure out how other frames rates related to other refresh rates.

Frame Rate vs Refresh Rate

What makes things confusing is the concept of how many separate and discreet frames are displayed every second, verses how many times the frame is repeated every 1/24th, 1/25, or 1/30th of a second to match the refresh rate of the Television display.

TVs have their own screen refresh capabilities. A television's screen refresh rate is usually listed in the user manual or on the manufaturer's product web page.

The most common refresh rate for today's Televisions are 60hz for NTSC-based systems and 50hz for PAL-based systems. However, with the introduction of some Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players that can actually output a 24 frame per second video signal, instead of the traditional 30 frame per second video signal, new refresh rates are being implemented by some television display makers to accommodate these signals in the correct mathematical ratio.

If you have a TV with a 120hz refresh rate that is 1080p/24 compatible (1920 pixels across the screen vs 1080 pixels down the screen, with a 24 frame per second rate). The TV ends up displaying 24 separate frames every second, but repeats each frame according to the refresh rate of the TV. In the case of 120hz each frame would be displayed 5 times within each 24th of a second.

In other words, even with higher refresh rates, there are still only 24 separate frames displayed every second, but they may need to be displayed multiple times, depending on the refresh rate.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 120hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 5 times every 24th of a second.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 72hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 3 times every 24th of a second.

To display 30 frames per second on a TV with a 60 hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 2 times every 30th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 50 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 2 times every 25th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 100 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 4 times every 25th of a second.

NOTE: The above explanation is with pure frame rates. If the TV also has to do a 24 frame per second to 30 frame per second or vice versa frame rate conversion, then you also have to deal with 3:2 or 2:3 Pulldown, which adds more math. 3:2 pulldown can also be performed by a DVD or Blu-ray Disc player, or other source device, before the signal reaches the TV. For more details, check out an explanation posted by HH Gregg.

How TVs Handle 1080p/24

If a TV is 1080p/60 or 1080p/30 - only compatible, it would not accept the 1080p/24 input. Currently, only Blu-ray Discs and HD-DVD discs are the main sources of 1080p/24 material. However, most Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players convert the outgoing signal to either 1080p/60 or 1080i/30 so that the information can be processed by a TV properly for screen display if it is not compatible with 1080p/24.

NOTE: Although 1080p/60-only TVs cannot display 1080p/24 - 1080p/24 TVs can display 1080p/60 via video processing.

Final Take

The whole thing boils down to the concept of separate frames vs repeated frames. In the case of frame rate vs refresh rate calculations, repeated frames are not considered separate frames as the information in the repeated frames is identical. It is when you move to a frame with different information that you count it as a new frame.

With more sophisticated technologies being employed in today's HDTVs, it is important that consumers arm themselves with the knowledge of what is important and what isn't. With HDTV, the concept of Screen Refresh Rate is indeed important, but don't get bogged down with the numbers.

The important thing to take into consideration is how the increase in Refresh Rate improves, or doesn't improve, the perceived screen image quality for you, the consumer. Let your own eyes be your guide as you comparison shop for your next television.

You should have included this Hoss.

http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/framevsrefresh.htm

 

[MonsterD]

Comparing TVs in store are usually pretty useless. Most aren't set up right.

Bingo, and like Childs was saying there are different things that you see in threshold of source and source flaws in itself. Maybe 3 things that you see as "grain" The artifacts i.e. threshold of medium of the data, the actual source quality itself i.e. analog film grain being shown very clearly by a great souce like a blu-ray player or SCREEN TYPE plasma vs.LCD. The Plasmas have a very noticeable texture to their screens which I do not appreciate , from a good distance it is not too bad, but intermediate and close it annoys me a lot.

If you want best picture quality Plasma is the best with deepest black levels and a higher refresh rate. LED backed LCDs are starting to get very close to Plasmas in PQ. I liked the screens on LCDs and the energy efficiency of LCD especially the LED backed ones do I chose a Samsung LED/LCD. It was a high series so it had a much better processor than the lower or intermediate levels.

Sony and Samsung are the way to go on LCDs Panasonic and Samsung on plasma, really Panasonic is the plasma king (they made the matrices for the Pioneer plasmas the last few years).

In 5 years or so I hope they perfect OLED because those are amazing, just have no longevity.

As people said satellite is a horrible source because of the crap they put it through to be processed, it is almost worst than a SD DVD being played. Blu-Ray is the only way you get 1080p.