Zeitler's Scouting Report

[SDogo]

Then there are the Bengals with 1 scout and an owner GM and they have been doing about as good as anybody in the first 3 or 4 rounds by just taking hyped guys in the 1st, character risks in the 2nd-3rd, and combine measurables after that.

The Bengals employ a team of 10-15 Independent scouts year round. They along with the Bills and Jaguars have 3 of the smallest scouting departments in the league.

 

[Marktui]

He was abused during the Senior Bowl practices and looked like he didn't belong. May have just been a bad week.

Thoses one one pass rush drills they show during practice heavily favors the d line. Don't get fooled by those drills. I remember seeing Jordan from Cal last year in those drills and straight up abusing o lineman, but when it came to game time, he didn't have near the success he had rushing the qb.

 

[cowboysooner]

The Bengals employ a team of 10-15 Independent scouts year round. They along with the Bills and Jaguars have 3 of the smallest scouting departments in the league.

Sorry, hyperbole is sometimes lost on the innerwebs.

I was just saying that while I believe all teams under invest in scouting, there is evidence to the contrary that more is better.

 

[InmanRoshi]

I"m not knocking Zeitler at all, here, but reading this:



Reminds me how close the line is between some of these players. If the UW coaches had him behind our 2010 7th rounder as recently as last year, that gives you a pretty good indication what a team's up against when trying to evaluate how good a college player is likely to be relative to the players we already have on our roster. How much of an upgrade can Zeitler be, really, over Bill Nagy with a year in the system and a full offseason in an NFL weight-room if the players were comparable at UW?

Before his moped injury Nagy might have been a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick himself.

 

[DFWJC]

Yeah, he's a beast. I waffle between him and Silatolu on who I favor more. I'd be thrilled with either in the 2nd round, should we be so lucky.

I agree. And although some may not want to make that gamble, this is one reason (2 actually) why I would be fine grabbing a D-linamen with our first pick and going OG with our second.

 

[FootballCorner]

I'm sure only the top 100 player will get that type of in depth report. Say a scout makes 100K (which is generous even for a national scout). It takes him a week to put that together. The cost is only about $2,000 for that report plus travel expenses and background checks guesstimated at $2,500. The team is going to invest $10mm for a 1st round pick or 3-4 million for a 2nd plus the intangible asset of the draft choice. Personally, I think most if not all organizations have underfunded and undermanned scouting divisions, especially in the day of $5 million head coaches and $1million coordinators and oline coaches.

Then there are the Bengals with 1 scout and an owner GM and they have been doing about as good as anybody in the first 3 or 4 rounds by just taking hyped guys in the 1st, character risks in the 2nd-3rd, and combine measurables after that.

A lot of it depends on the team. Some teams whittle the boards down significantly, only looking for players that "fit" them. So, they may only have 100-150 reports done per draft. I know this, I did one page per player on 700 players and this is what it looked like in print:
http://i4.***BLOCKED***/albums/y112/TMC4REAL/IMG00728.jpg

I would hate to see the number of trees killed if teams listed game notes and all that crap. It would look like a set of encyclopedias. But, different teams use different methods.

The Bengals employ a team of 10-15 Independent scouts year round. They along with the Bills and Jaguars have 3 of the smallest scouting departments in the league.

Actually, IIRC, the Bengals only employee 5 full time scouts. A couple of weeks ago, it was a big deal when they hired 2 full time scouts (which would push the number to seven) but one was expected to retire.

 

[FootballCorner]

One more thing, I am not so sure that NFL teams would have a "Compares to" area in their draft reports. I think Dave-Te' Thomas used some things from scouting reports to produce a more fan friendly style that blends both, which is excellent. I know he has been around a long time and he has good stuff. That was a great find. I have not read his stuff in a while.

George Karras, former scout for the Raiders, evaluated in a different way. He first did the 7 critical factors: confirmed speed (40 time), play speed, QAB (Quickness, Agility, Balance), Competitor, Character, mental awareness, strength/explosion. Then, he would get into position specifics.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Before his moped injury Nagy might have been a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick himself.

No way.

We've read it here countless times that Nagy is worthless.

 

[cowboysooner]

One more thing, I am not so sure that NFL teams would have a "Compares to" area in their draft reports. I think Dave-Te' Thomas used some things from scouting reports to produce a more fan friendly style that blends both, which is excellent. I know he has been around a long time and he has good stuff. That was a great find. I have not read his stuff in a while.

George Karras, former scout for the Raiders, evaluated in a different way. He first did the 7 critical factors: confirmed speed (40 time), play speed, QAB (Quickness, Agility, Balance), Competitor, Character, mental awareness, strength/explosion. Then, he would get into position specifics.

In War Room, all the Belichick disciples definitely use the compares to in their evaluation of players.

 

[FootballCorner]

In War Room, all the Belichick disciples definitely use the compares to in their evaluation of players.

That is interesting to learn. Surprising. But, each team is different.

 

[AbeBeta]

It's sooooooooo time consuming.

Yeah, I ran into some scouts at a hotel bar once. Slamming multiple doubles while a cab waited to take them to a strip club.

I can see why it takes soooooooo much time.

 

[TheCount]

Before his moped injury Nagy might have been a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick himself.

That's complete fiction. He never held on to a job and never won it back once healthy. I know a lot of people want to believe otherwise because he played for a big school, but even his head coach was surprised he was drafted. If we hadn't drafted him, he almost certainly would have.

He had no business starting last year, it was one of several silly mistakes made at the expense of Romo's protection.

 

[InmanRoshi]

That's complete fiction. He never held on to a job and never won it back once healthy. I know a lot of people want to believe otherwise because he played for a big school, but even his head coach was surprised he was drafted. If we hadn't drafted him, he almost certainly would have.

It's not complete fiction. He won a starting spot as a sophomore at NFL OL factory program and was headed for a bright future. He was as highly thought of as Moffitt at the time. Before his junior season he had his leg mangled in the accident that could have easily killed him. He tried to play through an ankle that was still shredded as a junior, and still wasn't completely back 100% as a Senior. Not a huge surprise, and especially when you're competing against three other future Top 75 picks for playing time.

I know we're all supposed to be HURRRRR OFFENSIVE LINE SINGLEHANDEDLY KILLED OUR SEASON HURRRRR`11111, but it's simply utter nonsense. The 25th QB Rating Allowed defense was by far the biggest culprit in 2011, and it's not really even close.

 

[Eskimo]

It's not complete fiction. He won a starting spot as a sophomore at NFL OL factory program and was headed for a bright future. He was as highly thought of as Moffitt at the time. Before his junior season he had his leg mangled in the accident that could have easily killed him. He tried to play through an ankle that was still shredded as a junior, and still wasn't completely back 100% as a Senior. Not a huge surprise, and especially when you're competing against three other future Top 75 picks for playing time.

I know we're all supposed to be HURRRRR OFFENSIVE LINE SINGLEHANDEDLY KILLED OUR SEASON HURRRRR`11111, but it's simply utter nonsense. The 25th QB Rating Allowed defense was by far the biggest culprit in 2011, and it's not really even close.

I agree that the OL was overly maligned for much of our season's struggles. They generally played better than they are given credit for. They played pretty poorly against the Jets and the 49ers but part of that may have been the talent they were going up against in the 49ers game. Then they went through a stretch where they played okay, then a stretch where they were almost dominant (except the Eagles game) and then they were bad the last two games of the year (Eagles and Giants).

There are two things they really seemed to struggle with last year - quick and fast DLs in pass protection. Powerful DLs against the run. Then they struggle against everyone inside the 10 yard line.

I do think we need to upgrade the OL but I'm not in favor of spending more than one draft pick in the first four rounds this year now that we have signed the two FAs and have the four kids from last year still developing. Overall, I still have hopes that Kowalski will be a quality starter and that one of Nagy and Arkin will be a quality starter. Costa will be a valuable reserve for OG or C if we need such a spare part as he was almost a league average Center in the last half of the season.

What really killed us last season was Kosier's legs falling apart at the end of the season.

I just hope we use our assets wisely. I think one second round pick on one of the premier OGs is a good investment to bring in a high ceiling starter that will help jump start this running attack. I'd be fine with Zeitler, Silatolu or Brandon Brooks. All 3 are good athletes with good game film but Zeitler has the most experience against the higher level of competition so he is the safest pick of the 3 by far but may have the lowest ceiling. I think he will be off the board by #45 and the only one of the 3 still available will be Brooks.

 

[Risen Star]

I remember many years ago Thomas was on some show and he placed his draft guide on the table to show the sheer size of it. It looked like a phonebook.

 

[kiheikiwi]

Sdogo and or Couchscout, can you guys that know more about these guys - enlighten us on what the Cowboys saw in these guys last year ! Nagy I can sort of understand, injured player from a big time program... does he really have upside as a 7th rounder ? And Arkin, if you guys have any inside/scouting ideas, what is his deal ? A 4th round pick who needed to get stronger. But, if we do end up drafting a 1st. 2nd. or 3rd. round guard, what does that do for our 4th round pick last year ? Isn't he at the bottom of our depth chart at guard and would be bumped ? Is he just another failed attempt at the OL - or is there more that we just don't see or know ?
Please help...

 

[cowboysooner]

Sdogo and or Couchscout, can you guys that know more about these guys - enlighten us on what the Cowboys saw in these guys last year ! Nagy I can sort of understand, injured player from a big time program... does he really have upside as a 7th rounder ? And Arkin, if you guys have any inside/scouting ideas, what is his deal ? A 4th round pick who needed to get stronger. But, if we do end up drafting a 1st. 2nd. or 3rd. round guard, what does that do for our 4th round pick last year ? Isn't he at the bottom of our depth chart at guard and would be bumped ? Is he just another failed attempt at the OL - or is there more that we just don't see or know ?
Please help...

Arkin was the 5th guard picked and that was about where he was rated.

 

[Eskimo]

Sdogo and or Couchscout, can you guys that know more about these guys - enlighten us on what the Cowboys saw in these guys last year ! Nagy I can sort of understand, injured player from a big time program... does he really have upside as a 7th rounder ? And Arkin, if you guys have any inside/scouting ideas, what is his deal ? A 4th round pick who needed to get stronger. But, if we do end up drafting a 1st. 2nd. or 3rd. round guard, what does that do for our 4th round pick last year ? Isn't he at the bottom of our depth chart at guard and would be bumped ? Is he just another failed attempt at the OL - or is there more that we just don't see or know ?
Please help...

There is not much film to look at on Arkin against NFL first stringers.

As for Nagy, CS touched on this in one of his offseason posts. He said Nagy was improving at a very rapid rate and has the makings of becoming a good OG.

You have to remember that this kid had a major leg injury that put him out for a year and then the next year he came back and ended up playing behind Zeitler, Moffat and Konz. He actually beat out Zeitler at the start of the year and then had to miss a couple of games and couldn't get his starting job back because Zeitler had run with it. He filled in that year at various spots on the line and played a fair bit of blocking TE.

I am actually pretty confident that our future OL might be (if we let it progress without wasting valuable draft and FA resources):

Tyron Zeitler/Brooks/DeCastro Killa Nagy/Arkin Free

Our reserves will be McKenzie, Arkin/Nagy, Parnell and Costa.

That group right there could be the most athletic set of 300 pounders to ever grace the field in the NFL. We can kill teams with sweeps, draws, traps, counters, screens and center screens. We can constantly be moving our OL around to create blocking mismatches with the defense. We can use the defense's aggressiveness against them. We can stone bltizes and give Romo the time to beat CBs deep with Miles and Dez.

The big reason I don't want us to spend too many picks on the OL is becauuse I believe most of the pieces are in place and we need to save money and draft picks to rebuild what his a horrifically bad defense. We cannot hold a lead against a decent offense - we almost beat the Giants and the Pats last year but got beat on big comebacks at the end of the game. It was the lack of pressure combined with the lack of coverage ability that did us in. We need guys who can hunt QBs and guys that can cover WRs. Eli was so sure we couldn't defend his WRs that he was throwing up lollipops super quickly against the blitz that our CBs couldn't defend. You can waste picks up the wazzou for small gains on the OL but you will only be robbing the defense of the resources it needs to become competitive.

 

[kiheikiwi]

Thanks guys - boy this year is hard to figure out ! Last year I knew we should take Smith and that worked out splendidly, this year I go back and forth like an old woman ha ha. Early in the season I thought Burfect was what we needed - boy was that bad. Then I have been all over DeCastro like fly's on rice, still am. But I can see the reasoning in taking another player, Cox or Baron, even would take Brockers if we go guard or center in the 2nd. I would even like Still if we could get him in the 2nd. if we do go guard at 14. We do have choices this year, but I agree - maybe 1 pick 2 at most on offence and all the rest on D. We do need it.....