Zeke cannot do what Pollard does

lukin2006

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Zeke is built to be a Jerome Bettis type back...

I'm fine with that. Bettis was darn good. Zeke is not nearly as good as Bettis.

Our coaches do not know how to use these 2 backs...

But this is what happens when you hire a washed-up coach who was desperate to get back to coaching.
 

RonnieT24

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I was making reference to 2016 version of Zeke, because it was that time era period when he toook the NFL by storm with his ability to break away
the 2016 version is what many of us still hear in reference from fans and media alike when zeke had that impact speed.
I noticed how every time Zeke makes a 15 yard " angry" run, someone is insisting that he is back to the 2016 version.

but from you statements, you seem convinced that zeke still has some burst - that even makes him somehow faster than Pollard.
" zeke runs more patient, .runs more powerful and more intelligent " ..but with all that, he's sacrificed speed for mere 15 yard runs. and when and if he ever does
have rare 20+ yrd runs, it's become celebrated.

Yes I think Zeke is faster on the top end than Pollard.. But Pollards gait allows him to go zero to 60 faster.. but I think Zeke is faster.. however as we watch Zeke take the pounding over the course of games and seasons he doesn't open it up to run full speed with any regularity. But yes, in order to always be under control Zeke runs with less speed. He may not even realize it but it's a physiological fact that if you are going full speed you have less control. People like YOU get all geeked up about 20+ yard runs. I'm not in that camp. This whole "I want 2016 Zeke back" thing is a waste of energy. I would rather have the 2016 line back.. which I can all but guarantee you would give you 2016 Zeke back.


Frankly nowadays, he's become far more easier to defend and far less of a fear factor. It's all about workhorse mode than big long runs now - since he's become top heavy.
and his 100 yard rushing is unusual rare now, that's it's welcome to see him finally get that.

Maybe he IS easier to defend now.. but this is the NFL.. if you are not evolving and getting better then you are getting worse because everybody else in the league IS trying to evolve and get better. If Tony Pollard becomes the starter next year in two years he will ALSO be easier to defend.. because every snap you play in the NFL becomes another page in the proverbial "book" on you. "Fear factor?" That's another nebulous term that has no meaning .. I don't need my opponent to be afraid of me.. I just need him to respect me.. Every opposing coach we face states simply that Zeke is the number one guy they need to stop coming into the game. Who cares if they aren't scared? They also aren't coming into the game focusing on Tony Pollard.



- Wins ? I've had to address wins per team vs individual with the Zeke haters, and i guess i'll have to re-address that here as well.
this is not boxing, it's not a solo sport, Wins comes in what the team does, and it's other factors than just one man running the ball.
Rushing champs can only do their part.
Team Defense still has to be played, turnovers have to be eliminated per the offense, and turnovers have to be captured/gained on the defensive side.
QB has to step up, and frankly speaking a supporting cast and coaching has to be in placed.

Every player who gets on the field contributes to wins and losses. The guys who get the ball contribute more than guys who don't. The reason the QB gets more credit and more blame is because he gets the ball every play.. Wildcat plays notwithstanding. Good running backs who get 25 touches a game also contribute more than wide receivers who get 5-6 touches a game.. but everybody has a role to play.

- Big long runs are important. Not every RB can create them. Emmitt wasn't a homerun hitter but he of course had other factors in making him one of the more historic HOF runners ever.
But the big thing is Zeke Elliott was drafted so high as one of the top five overall, because long run breakaway skills was within his ability.
Then all of sudden after 2017 season, he doesn't have that ability anymore.

No matter how many times you repeat this it won't make it true. Zeke was drafted to pair with Tony Romo.. the goal was to team a dominant ball control running game with a QB who was at the height of his powers. It had nothing to do with breakaway anything. That may have excited fans, but the Cowboys drafted Elliott to help Tony Romo win games by maintaining control of the ball and keep the suspect defense on the sidelines. Splash plays certainly help, but simply are not essential to making that happen. The Cowboys won 13 games in 2016 with Zeke having what 5 or 6? runs over 20 yards? They won 10 games in 2018 with him having like 3. If long runs are so important how do you explain that? Dalvin Cook is one of the leaders in the NFL in that category this year.. and his team is 4-6 and just lost to a team with the guy we keep hearing needs to do so much more of it. Meh..
 

Idgit

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Until Pollard gets blasted carrying the load.

Our #2 ALWAYS look capable...and in fact obscene, until they step up to 1. Then they are toast..and not such a great "value" anymore.

I agree with the first part of that.

Sometimes, the second stringers really can play. it depends on the player, but especially at RB where you can find good backs regularly in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
 

G2

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So, you demand a standard of proof...........for a claim I'm not making. Nice work.
I'm talking about your claim: "Zeke gets more carries b/c he makes 20x more money. Pollard has earned more playing time and a bigger role. But, Jerry has get his money's worth out of Zeke's contract and that pretty much dictates the offense."
Keep up.
 

gjkoeppen

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Sooo, you really don't understand reading the stats of your 2nd RB? This is really simple stuff, G. When a scatback gets fewer carries, he'll often have a much higher or lower YPC. I mean, c'mon, this is simple stuff. Unless someone is living under a rock, they've seen that scatback get a really high YPC many many times, and when a team was stupid enough to try him as the bell cow, he failed. Almost every time.

It's also shocking to me how many didn't even notice that when Pollard is met at the LOS, he goes down. He simply doesn't get the tough yds. Which is fine, that's not what we have him for.






Boy I like how you try to cover all your bases with this discussion. Gee you really narrowed it down with the 2nd back can have either higher or lower YPC. Yes Elliott and Pollard are two different types of backs but your assessment that a faster back that has moves can't be productive in the NFL is hogwash. The first one I thought of that was a faster back with moves and wasn't a power back to be a BIG TIME back in the NFL is Barry Sanders. Then in today's NFL how about Alvin Kamara or LeSean McCoy was another speed back with moves and not a power back.

When Elliott first came into the league he had a little speed to go with his power but he seems to have lost that speed and as far as his power thus far this season it seems like he's hit at the line of scrimmage all to often and hasn't broke many tackles and has far to many no gains or just a yard or two runs.
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quickccc

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Yes I think Zeke is faster on the top end than Pollard.. But Pollards gait allows him to go zero to 60 faster.. but I think Zeke is faster.. however as we watch Zeke take the pounding over the course of games and seasons he doesn't open it up to run full speed with any regularity. But yes, in order to always be under control Zeke runs with less speed. He may not even realize it but it's a physiological fact that if you are going full speed you have less control. People like YOU get all geeked up about 20+ yard runs. I'm not in that camp. This whole "I want 2016 Zeke back" thing is a waste of energy. I would rather have the 2016 line back.. which I can all but guarantee you would give you 2016 Zeke back.




Maybe he IS easier to defend now.. but this is the NFL.. if you are not evolving and getting better then you are getting worse because everybody else in the league IS trying to evolve and get better. If Tony Pollard becomes the starter next year in two years he will ALSO be easier to defend.. because every snap you play in the NFL becomes another page in the proverbial "book" on you. "Fear factor?" That's another nebulous term that has no meaning .. I don't need my opponent to be afraid of me.. I just need him to respect me.. Every opposing coach we face states simply that Zeke is the number one guy they need to stop coming into the game. Who cares if they aren't scared? They also aren't coming into the game focusing on Tony Pollard.





Every player who gets on the field contributes to wins and losses. The guys who get the ball contribute more than guys who don't. The reason the QB gets more credit and more blame is because he gets the ball every play.. Wildcat plays notwithstanding. Good running backs who get 25 touches a game also contribute more than wide receivers who get 5-6 touches a game.. but everybody has a role to play.



No matter how many times you repeat this it won't make it true. Zeke was drafted to pair with Tony Romo.. the goal was to team a dominant ball control running game with a QB who was at the height of his powers. It had nothing to do with breakaway anything. That may have excited fans, but the Cowboys drafted Elliott to help Tony Romo win games by maintaining control of the ball and keep the suspect defense on the sidelines. Splash plays certainly help, but simply are not essential to making that happen. The Cowboys won 13 games in 2016 with Zeke having what 5 or 6? runs over 20 yards? They won 10 games in 2018 with him having like 3. If long runs are so important how do you explain that? Dalvin Cook is one of the leaders in the NFL in that category this year.. and his team is 4-6 and just lost to a team with the guy we keep hearing needs to do so much more of it. Meh..


Yes I think Zeke is faster on the top end than Pollard “ … lol ..Ok, ..keep telling yourself that.

- Maybe in zeke’s first 2 years that could be argued. But when I see these types of insistency that not only zeke hasn’t lost a step or two, but that he’s faster than Pollard, I can’t help but
think it’s aimed more towards bias than what they are actually seeing.
The discussion of the question zeke’s lost of speed would even be brought unless there was obvious eyeball test in placed.

- Of course I get ‘geeked “ up about 20+ yrd splash runs because the backs that consistently come up with that have ability to change game momentum and force defenses to into scheming and changing into what they don’t want to have to do.
That kind of players makes defenses have to stay on their toes and have to be accountable on every given play. You cannot let up or blow a single assignment throughout an entire game.
Power runs they get to live another play.

- Yes you can have a back that’s not known for breakaway speed but they are piling up 20+ runs such as a Marcus Allen or Emmitt smith,.. but they are mounting up big play runs
because of their top end elusiveness and their ol are paving the way on such a dominant level.
And you know there was no dominant an OL as what we had in the Great Wall 90’s OL.

- If I wanted Zeke’s 2016 OL back …more than Zeke himself … then it makes no sense to draft have drafted a Zeke Elliott RB 4th overall that high in the first round, when
we could have otherwise drafted Derrick Henry in the 2nd round. ...Who BTW, has made several more big long splash runs than Zeke the last couple of years.

That amounts to us would've been a better position of drafting CB Ramsey with 4th overall while drafting Henry in 2nd round (where we ended up drafted likely bust Jaylon Smith)

And as you do keep missing this how teams drafting backs that very high up, are going after the speed, splash home hitting ability, not methodical 15 yard runners.
No matter how you keep wanting to exclude this out of the equation.
The thought of drafting Zeke THAT HIGH to pair him with Romo, was adding both a speed back that also ball controls the run game.

- When you’re drafting an Adrian Peterson that high among very top of the 1st round , you're going after a breakaway runner that also has it in his ability to ball control the clock.
It’s the combination that it is why you’re drafting him that high.

Every player contributes to winning, that is in his ability to produce to the winning, but you don’t lay single handedly lay blame at a rushing champ, if the other compotents of the team managed to fail .
That’s like those who are questioning "what did Zeke do in 2016 that led us in wins and playoffs ?" .

Yeh Zeke did his part of contributing in 2016 with leading the league in rushing, helping us gain a 13-3 NFC best record, rushing for over 100+ yds vs Green Bay in playoffs,.. but he wasn’t the reason why we lost and got ousted by GB . Yes you have one player contributing ...but there's so much one single player can do when it comes to overall team wins and playoff advancement.
Heck ….. " Leon can't do Every Thang !! " :dance:
 

G2

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Boy I like how you try to cover all your bases with this discussion. Gee you really narrowed it down with the 2nd back can have either higher or lower YPC. Yes Elliott and Pollard are two different types of backs but your assessment that a faster back that has moves can't be productive in the NFL is hogwash. The first one I thought of that was a faster back with moves and wasn't a power back to be a BIG TIME back in the NFL is Barry Sanders. Then in today's NFL how about Alvin Kamara or LeSean McCoy was another speed back with moves and not a power back.

When Elliott first came into the league he had a little speed to go with his power but he seems to have lost that speed and as far as his power thus far this season it seems like he's hit at the line of scrimmage all to often and hasn't broke many tackles and has far to many no gains or just a yard or two runs.
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Pollard isn't any of the RBs you mentioned.
 

Buzzbait

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Depends on what you need. Hunt didn't do so well before his OL came together. Hunt isn't anywhere near the grinder/powerback Zeke is. Hunt has his own grinder in Chubb. Watch them play together, it's the same type of combo we have here.
Zeke has been underperforming, no doubt. However, he also had a trash OL early on. It's not coming together, and it shows.

KS I pretty much agree with your description of Zeke, but my thoughts are that when he first came to the Cowboys he was faster, more elusive, and more of a breakaway back with receiving talent as well coming out of the backfield. But the Cowboys didn't use him that way as much as they could've, instead they ran him straight up the gut a lot. That took away from his elusive breakaway speed and converted him into the grinder/powerback you're describing.
IMO, that difference from what he was when he came here compared to the powerback style you see now is why many fans comment on him appearing to have "lost a step" and seeming slower than he used to be.
 

phildadon86

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Boy I like how you try to cover all your bases with this discussion. Gee you really narrowed it down with the 2nd back can have either higher or lower YPC. Yes Elliott and Pollard are two different types of backs but your assessment that a faster back that has moves can't be productive in the NFL is hogwash. The first one I thought of that was a faster back with moves and wasn't a power back to be a BIG TIME back in the NFL is Barry Sanders. Then in today's NFL how about Alvin Kamara or LeSean McCoy was another speed back with moves and not a power back.

When Elliott first came into the league he had a little speed to go with his power but he seems to have lost that speed and as far as his power thus far this season it seems like he's hit at the line of scrimmage all to often and hasn't broke many tackles and has far to many no gains or just a yard or two runs.
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So you are obviously not good at seeing things. Pollard is not built like any of the backs you mentioned.
 

G2

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And you can say that because of all the games he started and played the entire game. Oh that's right he hasn't had that opportunity.
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He does a pretty good job when our offense is in the spread, but doesn't do very well when we run multiple TE sets. If we ran the spread often enough the defense would destroy him.
 

RonnieT24

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Pollard isn't any of the RBs you mentioned.

This reminds me so much of the Julius Jones/Marion Barber/Felix Jones conundrum it aint even funny. The backup looks quicker and faster than the starter and gets more yards per carry and delivers more splash plays.. let's make him the starter.. then when we make him the starter he magically doesn't look so great so now we start noticing that HIS backup looks quicker and faster and averages more yards per carry and delivers more splash plays.. so let's make HIM the starter.. It's like this fan base never learns.. In a year of two when we part ways with Zeke, we will make Pollard the starter and some super quick and fast and super energetic youngster will come in and make some splashy runs and we will start the cycle all over again. Let's just hope THIS coaching staff isn't as stupid as the Garrett bunch were with regard to this little "problem." We have a great one-two punch and it's working.. Let's not be in such a hurry to screw it up.
 
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G2

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This reminds me so much of the Julius Jones/Marion Barber/Felix Jones conundrum it aint even funny. The backup looks quicker and faster than the starter and gets more yards per carry and delivers more splash plays.. let's make him the starter.. then when we make him the starter he magically doesn't look so great so now we start noticing that HIS backup looks quicker and faster and averages more yards per carry and delivers more splash plays.. so let's make HIM the starter.. It's like this fan base never learns.. In a year of two when we part ways with Zeke, we will make Pollard the starter and some super quick and fast and super energetic youngster will come in and make some splashy runs and we will start the cycle all over again. Let's just hope THIS coaching staff isn't as stupid as the Garrett bunch were with regard to this little "problem." We have a great one-two punch and it's working.. Let's not be in such a hurry to screw it up.
It comes down to the simple things.
Who scares a defense more?
How does the defense react to Elliott compared to Pollard?

The difference in how the defense lines up according to who's in the backfield really tells the story.
 

RonnieT24

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It comes down to the simple things.
Who scares a defense more?
How does the defense react to Elliott compared to Pollard?

The difference in how the defense lines up according to who's in the backfield really tells the story.

Yeah just go watch the 2 point conversion play.. As soon as Zeke gets the ball the entire defense starts coming after him.. When he pitched the ball to CD the defense was like what the hell? The only reason it even looked like the defense had a shot at stopping the play was that CD went into glide mode a little too quick.. It is what it is.. apparently people want Zeke to morph into Barry Sanders and if he can't do that they want him benched. There are way more things to get mad about with this team. Yes Zeke was a problem early with his drops and the fumbles.. He aint a problem now.. With that I'm prepared to move on from this cycle of whining about his play. Some people are never going to stop anyway.. That's their schtick.. not mine.
 

Blackspider214

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Pollard does well in relief. He doesn't have Zeke's body. Give him 20 plus carries, and he'll break.
The rotation works for them and the Cowboys.
Don't mess with that which works.

The thing is, you don't pay what we paid Zeke to be part of a rotation. You can find someone that does what Zeke does for far less. Pollard needs more touches, though. His big play ability blows Zeke's away.
 

lqmac1

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And Pollard cannot do what Zeke does.

Zeke is a very good chain moving pile driving RB. He gets the tough yards between the tackles. Often gets yards when there's nowhere to go.

Pollard is an explosive 3rd down back. He explodes through the hole and makes big plays.

This is one of the best combos in the NFL. Zeke takes the majority of the carries and softens 'em up, Pollard takes the top off.

Why is it whenever Pollard has a longer run people start screaming that he should get all the carries? It's just silly. How do you not see that it's the combo that's awesome?
Brandon Jacobs/ Ahmad Bradshaw - ish. I hated facing that combo
 

RonnieT24

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The thing is, you don't pay what we paid Zeke to be part of a rotation. You can find someone that does what Zeke does for far less. Pollard needs more touches, though. His big play ability blows Zeke's away.

It's fine to want to see more of Pollard.. but this business of referencing his contract makes no sense. If the team can win games with Zeke doing what he do who cares about the size of his paycheck? You can find someone cheaper? Hell you can say that about just about every player in the league who isn't on a rookie contract. I think people spend far too much time on that nonsense. Win games.. I don't care how you do it.. I don't care how much they pay you to do it. Win games.. End of story..
 

RonnieT24

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Brandon Jacobs/ Ahmad Bradshaw - ish. I hated facing that combo

Dayne/Barber before that.. and Morris/Anderson way back in the day. The Giants seem to have perfected that whole Thunder/Lightning RB combo thing.
 
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