Did this year settle the “if coaches or players matter more” debate

[Parcells4Life]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

 

[TWOK11]

There has never been a debate amongst those who understand the game. The Jimmies and Joes have always and will always be more important than the Xs and Os.

While great coaching can take a good team over the top, great players can win titles with bad coaching. You have never seen a great coach win a super bowl or college football championship with bad players.

 

[Big D]

You have to have the players but when teams are evenly matched talent-wise, coaching makes the difference.

 

[CATCH17]

If you’re predictable and have a ton of tendencies then you’re a trash coach at this level.

 

[JJHLH1]

Players >>> coaches

 

[Flamma]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

Never once did i think Belichick could win with anyone. But it's not all Brady either. I think Belichick and his system is a major reason for Brady going to 9 super bowls while a patriot. Compared to Rodgers going only to one under their system. I think Brady is better, 10 times better? No. So mixed in there somewhere is probably coaching. But every coach needs talent.

 

[T-RO]

Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

Arians is very good. As OC his offenses were prodigious in Pittsburgh, Indy, and Arizona before coming to Bucs. As head coach he's managed to build teams with great pass rush.

People aren't aware that Bucs had a prolific offense last year with Wiston too. But Jameis accounted for 40(!) turnovers (INTs and his own fumbles)

No coach does it by himself. Arians and their GM assembled quite a squad.

Reid, meanwhile, is a wizard. Reid's eagles nearly won Super Bowl 39. And if Mahomes foot was healthy, today's game might have gone differently. Reid w/3 Super Bowl wins would be more properly viewed.

 

[BobbyFlame469]

Never once did i think Belichick could win with anyone. But it's not all Brady either. I think Belichick and his system is a major reason for Brady going to 9 super bowls while a patriot. Compared to Rodgers going only to one under their system. I think Brady is better, 10 times better? No. So mixed in there somewhere is probably coaching. But every coach needs talent.

Aaron Rodgers is a choker. More interceptions than touchdowns in NFC championship games.


People really underrate clutchness.

 

[Flamma]

Aaron Rodgers is a choker. More interceptions than touchdowns in NFC championship games.


People really underrate clutchness.

I can't argue either of those points.

 

[buybuydandavis]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Some loser of a coach picked The GOAT in the 6th round of the draft.

Players are dependent variables on GMs/coaches.

 

[Pompey-Cowboy]

Yeah. As good as Brady is (understatement), I don't think his story alone is 'proof' that players are more important than coaches. There are good and bad of both. Most confusingly, sometimes a combination of not the best players and not the best coach can make the best team.

 

[Ranched]

No. But it settled that the great Mahomes is stinkie under pressure.

 

[ghst187]

What about....
Coaches + QBs vs all other players?

I’ve been of the mind for a long time that two positions you can’t overpay is HC and QB.
Difference between Tampa winning the SB and missing the playoffs was mostly HC and QB.
Like NO with Payton and Brees...Reid and Mahomes....

 

[DandyDon52]

It isnt either or, it is both, and actually KC has more talent than TB.(except for DL)
KC got out coached in this game big time.

Bowles used probably the Bellichick game plan, of dbl covering both hill and kelcey. That was the key to the win. And KC had no answer for that,
they like Garrett did not adjust in game to what TB was doing. They just thought eventually mahomes would bail them out but without those 2 guys
he couldnt.
Andy reid is ok coach but is over rated, mahomes and hill and kelcy have just been making him look good, today proved that.
TB also did good job getting pressure on mahomes with the DL and keeping him contained from running after 1st quarter.

Brady just didnt make mistakes, and just drove downfield with runs and short passes mostly. TB was very balanced, romo commented on that.

TB made one mistake, when they were 1st and goal, they ran jones, threw to a lineman and ran jones again twice I think, and I thought
fournette should have been in once they were 1st and goal, he was the stronger bigger runner. And dont try stuff like throwing to the lineman.
Fournett would have scored, so that cost them 1 td early in game.

After that they stayed simple and balanced.

Now you do have to have good players in secondary, and lb's to be able to double cover kelcy and hill, so in that case you have to have the talent, and the coaching.
I think brady may have told bowles how to defend KC, because NE did it in the afc champ game 2 years ago.
Brady helped install a winning team culture in TB, and that is more important than how he plays.

Mahomes is without a doubt more talented than Brady, yet Brady won and had better rating ! why?......Coaching. Gameplans, adjustments in game or lack of.

Andy Reid got out coached badly lol, and mahomes could not save him today lol.
Now other teams should see how to defend KC, if they have the guys to execute it, but some coaches wont do it lol, they have their
scheme, and it will not include double covering kelcy and hill, and they will still lose to KC.
KC should have went to short passes to RB's screens, and running more, but they like JG just kept doing what they always have done, and usually
that worked but not today.

 

[baltcowboy]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

I agree but it also about the money players. The players that Tampa and KC payed played well throughout the season. The Cowboys and let’s say the Eagles money players were terrible for the most part. In the end follow the money.

 

[Parcells4Life]

What about....
Coaches + QBs vs all other players?

I’ve been of the mind for a long time that two positions you can’t overpay is HC and QB.
Difference between Tampa winning the SB and missing the playoffs was mostly HC and QB.
Like NO with Payton and Brees...Reid and Mahomes....

If you can absolutely dominate the trenches you don’t need an unbelievable QB. Look at Eli, Dilfer, Foles, Russell (he wasn’t this current version of Russell when he won a Super Bowl).

Brady and Roethlisberger were game managers their first Super Bowls. Ben had one of the lowest QB ratings by a winner for his first one I believe.

 

[visionary]

That’s a stupid question and it’s difficult to overstate how stupid

of course talent matters otherwise you could take any college players and heat an NFL team

but on the NFL teams are clustered closely together and then coaching becomes extremely important

similarly a garbage HC like Garrett can sink a talented team and a great HC can beat a more talented team

so, the simple answer is that BOTH matter

 

[RodeoJake]

In my opinion, a combination of both is necessary. I think of football like a chess match. You have your star pieces down to those that do the dirty work. Coaches put players in places to counter the other side. They try to outmaneuver their counterpart. The best can do it consistently. If one side is playing pawns in against stars, even a grand master would find that nearly impossible to win.

 

[kevm3]

Tampa Bay was stacked on offense and defense and have one of the greatest defensive coordinators in the league.

Honestly, it takes both. The Browns are completely stacked with talent and they didn't get to the SuperBowl. Neither did the Philly 'dream-team'. If Tom Brady was on the Cowboys, he'd be watching the playoffs this year.

Belichick and Brady were a combination deal, which is what made them so dangerous and allowed them to cover up a lot of the talent deficits of picking last or near last every round for over a decade.

 

[foofighters]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

Dallas had a terrible D and O line issues.

KC suffered from major issues at the tackle position and his star QB was limited (bad combo to have).

The Bucs have a well rounded team with one of the greatest QBs of all time.

I don't know that it's all that hard to figure out.