Did this year settle the “if coaches or players matter more” debate

[uvaballa]

You always have to have talent. But more often than not the team with the better defense usually wins. Cowboys aren’t going anywhere until they improve on D.

 

[JBond]

Arians is very good. As OC his offenses were prodigious in Pittsburgh, Indy, and Arizona before coming to Bucs. As head coach he's managed to build teams with great pass rush.

People aren't aware that Bucs had a prolific offense last year with Wiston too. But Jameis accounted for 40(!) turnovers (INTs and his own fumbles)

No coach does it by himself. Arians and their GM assembled quite a squad.

Reid, meanwhile, is a wizard. Reid's eagles nearly won Super Bowl 39. And if Mahomes foot was healthy, today's game might have gone differently. Reid w/3 Super Bowl wins would be more properly viewed.

Not to mention 5 drops when Mahomes hit receivers in the hands and face mask while running for his life on a bad foot.

 

[MyFairLady]

Tom Brady took a joke of a franchise and turned them into a hard working, dedicated, prepared, disciplined, selfless machine. He does this by being the CEO of the organization. He is the QB, head coach, GM and trainer all wrapped up into one. He sets the example and enforces the rules. Bellichek was nothing before him and nothing after him. This is all about Brady and is a monster example of why we will never win.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Mahomes is without a doubt more talented than Brady

More talented physically, runs better and throws on the run better. Brady sees defenses better and is more accurate.

Mahomes' technique was poor coming out of college, and is still poor far too often. People ooh and ah over the "flip" passes, etc. but those aren't the type you can use a lot, last night he had many times where he did have pressure but he handled it very badly. He reverted to his college form, which won't work well in the NFL. His Draftek profile showed this:

"his footwork is atrocious. His feet are often planted and that turns him into a statue. He has no idea how to maneuver in a pocket or how to do anything but retreat backward when a rusher gets loose. Keeping your feet active is essential to being able to avoid the rush and moving around within the pocket. Active feet also make it possible for a player to always throw from an ideal platform. That is an area where Mahomes may be one of the worst in the country. He throws off-balance more than any player I have studied, and while the system could be too blame for relying on quick throws and timing so much, there are plenty of instances where his feet are just lazy. This same issue also sees him throw with some unusual arm-angles. Often quarterbacks with gifted arms get complacent and lose discipline but once again with Mahomes, it happens far too often when it isn't necessary."

The unusual arm angles, etc. are fine when teams haven't seen that, but once they do, they can defend it better.

But really there were only two main things that caused the game to go as it did:

1. The pass rush on Mahomes was very heavy, seldom did he have time to survey the field. Any quarterback, no matter how talented, needs time to see the defense.
2. Brady is 43 years old. He's seen it all. Few of his passes were more than 8-10 yards, but that's all he needed, he was able to find open receivers as needed, and later in the game his running game began to wear down the KC defense. Funny how people criticized Dak for his being a "bus driver", but last night Brady was mostly a bus driver, one hand off to Fournette went for 28 yards and a touchdown, the first td to Gronk was 8 yards and the td to Brown was 1 yard. Only 201 yards passing, several of his passes were very short but the rac was large.

Once again, a strong defense and a good running game won out...

 

[Haimerej]

KC has more talent than TB.(except for DL)

I'll take TB's linebackers and secondary, too.

Mahomes is without a doubt more talented than Brady, yet Brady won and had better rating ! why?......Coaching. Gameplans, adjustments in game or lack of.

I'd say, "more physically talented." Brady is better between the ears. Mahomes is one of the best backyard footballers that's ever made it this far. But reading a defense, making the correct audible, and decisive reads is more important than being able to throw 50 yards while running to your left.

 

[dmaschuck]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

Neither whoever the script has winning will win regardless of the quality of players or coaches

 

[Jake]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

Players have always mattered more. A good coach can't polish a turd any more than a bad one.

Coaching comes into play when you have good players. A good coach will get them over the top. A bad coach will hold them back.

 

[ThatJerryKid]

Aaron Rodgers is a choker. More interceptions than touchdowns in NFC championship games.


People really underrate clutchness.

Dak is clutch...

 

[basel90]

A balanced team roster built on talent in the the defensive front with a decent QB can get it done .

 

[Doomsday101]

I did not know there was a debate. lol Both coaches and players matter.

 

[Wizarus]

This isn't fair at all, Brady entered a good situation while Belicheck was given a bad one.

If anything this Superbowl game showed how coaching can screw over players.

 

[kskboys]

No. Because it was never a debate. Both are extremely important.

In this case, adding in Brady, TB added in a great player who also functioned as a coach. So, essentially they added both coach and player in one.

 

[kskboys]

I'll take TB's linebackers and secondary, too.



I'd say, "more physically talented." Brady is better between the ears. Mahomes is one of the best backyard footballers that's ever made it this far. But reading a defense, making the correct audible, and decisive reads is more important than being able to throw 50 yards while running to your left.

Ooooohhhh, very well said!!!!!

I know Mah was under pressure, and I know that's hard to deal w/, I get it, I do. However, his scrambling around w/o keeping his eye downfield was simply not going to work.

 

[Doomsday101]

This isn't fair at all, Brady entered a good situation while Belicheck was given a bad one.

If anything this Superbowl game showed how coaching can screw over players.

why did it get bad for Belicheck? did he allow the talent level to drop?

 

[IrishAnto]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

As always, it's neither one or the other but a combination of both.
Always has been, always will.
A great coach will make his team greater than the sum of their parts, the greater the parts, the bigger the sum.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The premise of this argument is flawed, as I see it. When Tom left Tampa, he was able to look at every situation in the NFL and pick the very best one that allowed for him to succeed. Belichick, his hand is dealt. The Pats are what they are and he can't pick or choose, he has to rebuild. Circumstances are very different for each. You can't win without a good QB but you will never have a good QB unless you have a great Coaching Staff in place so it's not one more important then the other IMO. You gotta have both if you want to win.

 

[Verdict]

To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

Long term the Brady/ Hoodie debate may not be settled. New England now has reasonably high draft picks. NE has just purged a large portion of its salary cap issues. It is now in pretty good cap shape.

Brady didn’t win a super bowl. The Bucs won with Brady. Brady came to a stacked team and put them over the top. But arguably the Bucs were in the super bowl in spite of Brady.

 

[Verdict]

The premise of this argument is flawed, as I see it. When Tom left Tampa, he was able to look at every situation in the NFL and pick the very best one that allowed for him to succeed. Belichick, his hand is dealt. The Pats are what they are and he can't pick or choose, he has to rebuild. Circumstances are very different for each. You can't win without a good QB but you will never have a good QB unless you have a great Coaching Staff in place so it's not one more important then the other IMO. You gotta have both if you want to win.

Who do they think made Brady great? He was a 6th round pick.

 

[Verdict]

In my opinion, a combination of both is necessary. I think of football like a chess match. You have your star pieces down to those that do the dirty work. Coaches put players in places to counter the other side. They try to outmaneuver their counterpart. The best can do it consistently. If one side is playing pawns in against stars, even a grand master would find that nearly impossible to win.

True.

 

[RonnieT24]

It has always been both.. if the talent is equal the coaching matchup can tip the scales.. If the coaching is equal then the talent tips the scales.. If both are equal it's whoever sent the refs the biggest wad o cash before the game! LOL! But no amount of coaching can overcome guys who can't play.. and no amount of talent can overcome an idiot coach.