Tanier on Ware and the HOF

[JD_KaPow]

Good article at FO about the pass rushers coming up for the Hall. Ware, Suggs, Allen, Freeney and Mathis are all between 120 and 140 sacks and coming eligible.

It's more about the mechanics of Hall voting and how logjams get created at certain positions, but he does go into the merits. Several of these guys are deserving, the question is how do we get from here to there.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2021/hall-fame-debates-julius-peppers-and-sack-pack
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That said, all the members of our Sack Pack have more to offer than just strings of double-digit sack seasons:

• Allen led the league in fumble recoveries and tackles for a loss and recorded four career safeties, in addition to leading the league in sacks twice.
• Freeney was named to the Hall of Fame's All-2000s team, played for a Super Bowl winner, forced 47 career fumbles (third on an all-time list that only dates to 1999) and possessed a legendary spin move that provided many of the "signature moments" some voters look for.
• Mathis forced 54 fumbles, making him the all-time leader. He led the league in forced fumbles three times.
• Suggs was the Defensive Player of the Year in 2011, helping the Ravens win the Super Bowl the next year. He also played for a legendary defense, which could work for him or against him.
• Ware led the NFL in tackles for a loss three times and helped the Denver Broncos win a championship, recording a pair of sacks in Super Bowl 50. (See: "signature moments.")

All of the awards and accomplishments beef up the portfolios of our Sack Pack, but no one tumbles into the "overwhelmingly qualified" category. In fact, Super Bowl rings, forced fumbles, and awards just make Allen, Freeney, Mathis, Suggs, and Ware look more similar to one another. That's a problem, because it's very likely that five solid Hall of Fame-worthy edge rushers will get stuck Three Stooges-style while trying to walk through the door to Canton at the same time and end up keeping each other from being enshrined for years.
...
Here's my breakdown of how the Sack Pack will queue up:

DeMarcus Ware has the best portfolio of the group and may have the clearest path to enshrinement. Dallas voters don't have anyone better to focus upon right now, and Denver voters should be happy to pile on. Allen and Mathis are Ware's primary obstacles before others reach the ballot. Mathis will probably stall at the semifinalist stage this year, allowing the voters to either wave Ware or Allen (or both) through.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Harvey Martin???

 

[JD_KaPow]

Harvey Martin???

Not eligible through the regular voting. That's a matter for the Seniors committee.

 

[Carson]

1. Harvey Martin???

It’s insane “Beautiful” Harvey Martin isn’t in the Hall. He would’ve had 23 sacks in just 14 games in 1977

Martin, Lee Roy Jordan and Howley should be in the HOF without question.

 

[Tussinman]

Ware should be the first in. All decade team, 4x first team all-pro, and 9x pro bowler.

Jared Allen should go quick (within the first 3 years).

Suggs in kinda mid tier on the list. Not making the all-decade team and only have 1x all pro selection will hurt him. DPOY and 2x superbowl will help make up the void.

Mathis I don't think makes it or either has to wait a long time to get in. Very good player for a long time but nothing stands out really (5 pro bowls is low compared to his peers, only made all-pro team once, no all-decade team or DPOY)

 

[John813]

Ware should be the first in. All decade team, 4x first team all-pro, and 9x pro bowler.

Jared Allen should go quick (within the first 3 years).

Suggs in kinda mid tier on the list. Not making the all-decade team and only have 1x all pro selection will hurt him. DPOY and 2x superbowl will help make up the void.

Mathis I don't think makes it or either has to wait a long time to get in. Very good player for a long time but nothing stands out really (5 pro bowls is low compared to his peers, only made all-pro team once, no all-decade team or DPOY)

You beat me to it.

Ware also playing a big role in the superbowl makes him a shoe in first ballot guy IMO.

 

[tyke1doe]

Mathis is the odd man out.
Ware gets in because he's a Cowboys, because he left to show what he could do and because he's an all-around great guy.
Suggs gets in because Baltimore is known for its defense, and he was a premiere pass rusher playing with the likes of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.
Freeney should make it in too. Helps when you played with Peyton Manning.

 

[Avery]

Ware is going to have no problem making the hall. He's also a likable folk so the media won't have that working against him either.

 

[Ranched]

Besides Ware, Romo is also eligible in 2022. Romo, the Cowboy’s all time leader in passing yards & passing touchdowns, is unlikely to get in on the first try.

There's no doubt Ware has a shot of being a first ballot selection.

 

[MarcusRock]

Mathis is the odd man out.
Ware gets in because he's a Cowboys, because he left to show what he could do and because he's an all-around great guy.
Suggs gets in because Baltimore is known for its defense, and he was a premiere pass rusher playing with the likes of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.
Freeney should make it in too. Helps when you played with Peyton Manning.

What about Allen? Those 2 are neck and neck to me and Allen has a year of eligibility on Ware already. Would be great if there's space for both to enter at the same time but if there's only room for one that could be a tight one.

 

[MarcusRock]

Besides Ware, Romo is also eligible in 2022. Romo, the Cowboy’s all time leader in passing yards & passing touchdowns, is unlikely to get in on the first try.

Or 5th or 8th or 11th or ever, IMO.

 

[tyke1doe]

What about Allen? Those 2 are neck and neck to me and Allen has a year of eligibility on Ware already. Would be great if there's space for both to enter at the same time but if there's only room for one that could be a tight one.

I think he's a good candidate for HoF, but I think he gets squeezed out because he never played on a Super Bowl-winning team, wasn't a part of a notable defense or connected to notable players like Ware, Suggs and Freeney are/were.

 

[MarcusRock]

I think he's a good candidate for HoF, but I think he gets squeezed out because he never played on a Super Bowl-winning team, wasn't a part of a notable defense or connected to notable players like Ware, Suggs and Freeney are/were.

The Super Bowl reason is legit because we see it with QBs. But notable defense, notable other players? Don't know about those standards. Ware WAS our defense half the time so not sure he even meets that standard unless you consider his short time with Denver. Allen played with the pretty good DTs Pat and Kevin Williams (both Pro Bowlers) in Minnesota. Even so, if you were a standout on a defense that was pretty good and had other good players, then were you really as good as you looked? As the article said, it could help or hurt a player, particularly if you're not the first name people think of on that defense (both Allen and Ware in Dallas are -- Ware in Denver had Von Miller). As for the connected to a notable player, I'm not even sure where that comes from. All it does is give greater visibility and the player has to do the rest.

 

[Whyjerry]

It’s the dog days of NFL reporting when one contemplates the merits of Ware in the Hall. I can’t even believe any intelligent or non intelligent life form would take the other side of that argument.

He is a no brainer HOFer.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Hall = Hali?

 

[JD_KaPow]

It’s the dog days of NFL reporting when one contemplates the merits of Ware in the Hall. I can’t even believe any intelligent or non intelligent life form would take the other side of that argument.

He is a no brainer HOFer.

Nobody is arguing otherwise. He calls them all "solid Hall of Fame-worthy edge rushers."

 

[J_Allen]

He was king of the inconsequential sack. How many games did he take over? I can only think of the Saints game in 2009.

 

[john van brocklin]

Good article at FO about the pass rushers coming up for the Hall. Ware, Suggs, Allen, Freeney and Mathis are all between 120 and 140 sacks and coming eligible.

It's more about the mechanics of Hall voting and how logjams get created at certain positions, but he does go into the merits. Several of these guys are deserving, the question is how do we get from here to there.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2021/hall-fame-debates-julius-peppers-and-sack-pack
---------
That said, all the members of our Sack Pack have more to offer than just strings of double-digit sack seasons:

• Allen led the league in fumble recoveries and tackles for a loss and recorded four career safeties, in addition to leading the league in sacks twice.
• Freeney was named to the Hall of Fame's All-2000s team, played for a Super Bowl winner, forced 47 career fumbles (third on an all-time list that only dates to 1999) and possessed a legendary spin move that provided many of the "signature moments" some voters look for.
• Mathis forced 54 fumbles, making him the all-time leader. He led the league in forced fumbles three times.
• Suggs was the Defensive Player of the Year in 2011, helping the Ravens win the Super Bowl the next year. He also played for a legendary defense, which could work for him or against him.
• Ware led the NFL in tackles for a loss three times and helped the Denver Broncos win a championship, recording a pair of sacks in Super Bowl 50. (See: "signature moments.")

All of the awards and accomplishments beef up the portfolios of our Sack Pack, but no one tumbles into the "overwhelmingly qualified" category. In fact, Super Bowl rings, forced fumbles, and awards just make Allen, Freeney, Mathis, Suggs, and Ware look more similar to one another. That's a problem, because it's very likely that five solid Hall of Fame-worthy edge rushers will get stuck Three Stooges-style while trying to walk through the door to Canton at the same time and end up keeping each other from being enshrined for years.
...
Here's my breakdown of how the Sack Pack will queue up:

DeMarcus Ware has the best portfolio of the group and may have the clearest path to enshrinement. Dallas voters don't have anyone better to focus upon right now, and Denver voters should be happy to pile on. Allen and Mathis are Ware's primary obstacles before others reach the ballot. Mathis will probably stall at the semifinalist stage this year, allowing the voters to either wave Ware or Allen (or both) through.

Hope it happens

 

[john van brocklin]

Harvey Martin???

Does he have the stats ?
Hurts that they did not count sacks for his whole career.

 

[Tussinman]

Does he have the stats ?

He has the accolades.

He's the only player to have both superbowl MVP and all decade team and NOT be in the hall of fame.