Tyler Linderbaum

[RS12]

Zion was interviewed on Dari and Mel yesterday late in the show. Came off as very insightful, intelligent and well spoken. I wouldn't mind him at all at 24. Easily smart enough to pick up schemes and make line calls. That said I think they pick Green if he is there.

 

[tm1119]

Apparently it is important when you can't find someone in your list of good players with the same arm length and xwalker couldnt find a historical one either.

That’s why I asked…is 1” arm of length enough to override multiple years of arguably some of the best tape you’ll watch of a center prospect?

Apparently for you the answer is yes. I disagree and think what he did in the Big10 speaks for itself. That’s fine…

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

That’s why I asked…is 1” arm of length enough to override multiple years of arguably some of the best tape you’ll watch of a center prospect?

Apparently for you the answer is yes. I disagree and think what he did in the Big10 speaks for itself. That’s fine…

But it isn't just the 1 inch shorter arms. It's the combination of that and him being a smaller center. Most of the draft experts have pointed out that he does at times have issues against bigger DTs. It isn't just made up.

 

[quickccc]

A case can be made for Linderbaum being worth a top half of the 1st type pick, but a case can also be made for not drafting him in the 1st at all.

• Pro:
  • Terrific college player.
  • 'High Floor' type player.
  • Excellent technique/awareness.
  • Many very good NFL OCs have been 'smallish' players.
  • Wrestling Background.
    • We saw how Odighi (wresting background) was able to hold up even against double teams despite a lack of traditional DT size.
    • The all-time example of a small OLineman with wresting background succeeding was Carlton Haselrig (Steelers 12th round pick in 1989).
    • Haselrig (NFL listing 6-1, 295) was one of the greatest amateur wrestlers of all time.
    • He became a Pro Bowl OG for the Steelers but had a short career due to mental issues.

• Con:
  • Didn't participate in the combine measurables events.
  • His size limitation is at the far end of the scale with really short arms (31-1/8" arms, 6-3, 296).
    • In reviewing the measurables of some smallish NFL OLinemen, I have not found any quality OL with arm length below 32". Not saying that one doesn't exist, but none that I've found.
  • He was 270 pounds as a freshman and reportedly played in the mid 280 range last season. He might be maxed out at 296.
    • Players like Rodney Hudson (6-2, 299 pre-draft), were able to bulk up in the NFL (now listed at 315).
  • Unfortunately, NFL weight listings are rarely accurate making it difficult to compare.
  • Corey Lindsley, a 5th round pick by McCarthy's Packers in 2014 is listed at 301 with 32" arms.
  • Brian Baldinger has him as his 2nd favorite OL in this draft; however, even Baldinger says that he might get over-powered 3 or 4 times per game.
  • Connor Williams had excellent technique/awareness and LT type foot quickness, but his lack of anchor remained a significant limitation.
    • CW did bulk up to over 310 (per training camp reports) but his lower body remained lacking in the power/bulk to 'sit down' on 1-tech types.
    • CW was at his best against Aaron Donald but struggled with no-name 320+ type DTs.

• Alternative:
  • Zion Johnson looks like a perfect fit to move to OC in the NFL.
  • College version Zion reminds me of NFL version Rodney Hudson.
  • The Senior Bowl director says his intelligence is up there with the best that he has ever studied/interviewed.
  • He played OC at the Senior Bowl and looked good.
  • His worst shotgun snap was at the QBs belt-buckle but dead-center right/left.
  • If ZJ is tried at OC and doesn't succeed, then he'll be a quality OG; whereas, Linderbaum is OC-only.

• Frederick
  • Frederick's ability to handle any type of DT 1-on-1, improved the overall OLine.
  • Zack Martin didn't have to be concerned about helping Frederick which allowed him to cheat over to help the RT.
  • 2012 UDFA Ron Leary had a couple of terrific years playing between Frederick and Tyron Smith, but didn't do much when he went to Denver.

Thanks for Sharing .....

- IMO, instead of this- to -Center conversion ... why not get your ready made Travis Fredrick pure center, one who excelled at it in college ?

- Instead of a Conner Williams OT to OG, Why not get your highly regarded OG that excelled at interior OG -thus learning process is extensively shortened
at the NFL level. Thus is not the a year or two away from fully developing vs a payer that is more NFL ready to plus and play ?

- Now when injuries hit badly, i can see and appreciate the luxury of a player that can flex to other positions, ..ala Zack Martin to emergence RT./Larry Allen
to RT.

 

[Oz-of-Cowboy-Country]

There is a guy further down the line I'd rather have... Marquis Hayes of Oklahoma.
6'5" 320 pounds.

 

[quickccc]

Linderbaum may be the safest bet in this class. Great tape. Terrific skill set. He doesn’t check the size box, but this kid is going to make Pro Bowls. But it probably won’t be for this team.

-i don't think it's that safe anymore. . maybe it's over-scouting by the imcumbent draft gurus but it seems there's a reason why his stock is supposedly falling at this point

-while many think very highly of his movement skills, and football IQ, some are saying he is tooo much of a finesse player who can have issues anchoring vs power
at the NFL level, and that he may be best fit for a zone type offense and may need double help from OGs.

-we need centers that can handle their own. -ala Travis Fredrick

 

[quickccc]

for what's in worth. ..i'm more all onboard with drafting Zion Johnson than vs Green or Linderbaum at this point.

 

[tm1119]

But it isn't just the 1 inch shorter arms. It's the combination of that and him being a smaller center. Most of the draft experts have pointed out that he does at times have issues against bigger DTs. It isn't just made up.

But his height and weight does match the centers I posted…

And as a person who’s watched most of his games the past 2 years I’d need you to show me the tape of him having trouble….because I don’t think it exists






https://youtu.be/DnkBkeaGQtY

Let me know when you find it…

Apparently PFF completely missed all of the times he struggled too…
“Linderbaum is the best center prospect we've seen in the PFF College era. He was already the highest-graded center in the country in 2020, but he took his game to new heights in 2021, earning a 95.4 overall grade.”

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

From Lance Zierlein:

Weaknesses

• Listed at less than 300 pounds and likely scheme-dependent as move blocker.
• True two-gappers will discard his base block.
• Gets there but might need more power to finish pro defenders.
• Drive base can get hurried and narrow.
• Bull rushers can be a problem.
• Not very long to re-calibrate if he's not there first with his hands.
• Needs to limit oversets and calm his initial movements.
• Shotgun snaps are a little too tall.

From Dane Brugler:

WEAKNESSES: Undersized with a squatty frame … his lack of length and girth can be exposed vs. long-armed rushers … grappler at the point of attack, but not an overpowering blocker … will struggle in pass protection when he misfires with his punch, leaving him overextended and controlled … his inconsistent habits in pass protection leave him on the ground too much … will occasionally drop his eyes in space, allowing rushers to elude him … will fall off second-level blocks when he sacrifices his balance … didn’t play tackle or guard in college, and doesn’t offer position versatility

From Tony Pauline:

Negatives: Overextends into run blocks on occasion. Does a lot of clutching and grabbing against bigger opponents. Gets run over at times. Struggles finishing blocks.

Analysis: While Linderbaum is the apple of many in the draft world’s eye, he’s an incomplete center who must get stronger and finish his game. His explosion and quickness off the snap give him a decided advantage, but Linderbaum struggles handling big, mauling opponents.

SO, I'm not just making things up. These are respected draft dudes and they all point out similar issues. I think he is going to be a good NFL center and will have a long career. But there are a lot of people that think he has and will have issues with bigger DTs that line up over top of him.

 

[xwalker]

Brett Kollman's take on Linderbaum counters a fair number of your cons. What impressed me most was his account of how Linderbaum in mid play saw things breaking down and instantly acted correctly to fix it. That kind of gift is what Fredbeard had and Stepnoski as well.

No, it did not.

 

[xwalker]

I posted this in another thread, but here are some really good NFL centers and their pre-draft measurements

Jason Kelce- 6’2 280 32.5” arms
Mitch Morse- 6’5 305 32.25” arms
Corey Linsley- 6’3 296 32” arms
Rodney Hudson- 6’2 299 32.5” arms
Ben Jones- 6’2 303 32.5” arms
Brian Allen- 6’1 298 32.33” arms
Connor McGovern (not ours)- 6’4 305 32.75” arms
Mason Cole- 6’4 307 32.15” arms
Chase Coullier- 6’4 312 32.25” arms
Creed Humphrey- 6’5 312 32.25” arms
David Andrews- 6’2 294 32.15” arms

I really think the size limitation is getting overblown. Would 10 pounds and an extra 1” of length (insert joke here) make him a definite top 25 pick? And should we really care about that little of a size difference?

The extra 10 pounds likely would have made a big difference for Connor Williams.

Nobody is saying to take him off the draft board. The question is specific to 1st round vs 2nd round.

Recap from my OP:
His size limitation is at the far end of the scale with really short arms (31-1/8" arms, 6-3, 296).
In reviewing the measurables of some smallish NFL OLinemen, I have not found any quality OL with arm length below 32". Not saying that one doesn't exist, but none that I've found.
He was 270 pounds as a freshman and reportedly played in the mid 280 range last season. He might be maxed out at 296.
Players like Rodney Hudson (6-2, 299 pre-draft), were able to bulk up in the NFL (now listed at 315).
Unfortunately, NFL weight listings are rarely accurate making it difficult to compare.
Corey Lindsley, a 5th round pick by McCarthy's Packers in 2014 is listed at 301 with 32" arms.

 

[Gaede]

I think this is all pretty silly. He can play and his arm size didn't prevent him from being awesome in college. This is the epitome of overanalysis.

 

[Malhavoc]

-i don't think it's that safe anymore. . maybe it's over-scouting by the imcumbent draft gurus but it seems there's a reason why his stock is supposedly falling at this point

-while many think very highly of his movement skills, and football IQ, some are saying he is tooo much of a finesse player who can have issues anchoring vs power
at the NFL level, and that he may be best fit for a zone type offense and may need double help from OGs.

-we need centers that can handle their own. -ala Travis Fredrick

And yet he’s ranked higher than both Green and Johnson on ESPN and NFL.com. Are those the end all in rankings ? No. But it seems like Linderbaum is penalized more for his lack of size than anything else. I just don’t see the bad tape. A play here or there sure. Green and Johnson have their share of bad tape out there. Like I said, this team won’t likely take the player. But that kid is going to make Pro Bowls.

 

[xwalker]

But his height and weight does match the centers I posted…

And as a person who’s watched most of his games the past 2 years I’d need you to show me the tape of him having trouble….because I don’t think it exists






https://youtu.be/DnkBkeaGQtY

Let me know when you find it…

Apparently PFF completely missed all of the times he struggled too…
“Linderbaum is the best center prospect we've seen in the PFF College era. He was already the highest-graded center in the country in 2020, but he took his game to new heights in 2021, earning a 95.4 overall grade.”

The first one I pulled up,
2:57 in the video.
That DT is Damion Daniels (6-1, 320). Brugler has him rated as the 60th DT in this draft.

Nobody is going to spend a bunch of time getting the time stamps for multiple plays because you'll dismiss the evidence anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWhIsg_sOjI

 

[xwalker]

And yet he’s ranked higher than both Green and Johnson on ESPN and NFL.com. Are those the end all in rankings ? No. But it seems like Linderbaum is penalized more for his lack of size than anything else. I just don’t see the bad tape. A play here or there sure. Green and Johnson have their share of bad tape out there. Like I said, this team won’t likely take the player. But that kid is going to make Pro Bowls.

Nobody is saying that he is a terrible prospect.

The issue is that there will be some very good players available at #24 and he might not be the best one available.

 

[Malhavoc]

Nobody is saying that he is a terrible prospect.

The issue is that there will be some very good players available at #24 and he might not be the best one available.

Green and Johnson are good prospects. But IMO their tape isn’t nearly as good as Linderbaum’s. Heck Johnson got thrown around a bit by Travis Jones in practice at the Senior Bowl. Green isn’t a particularly good athlete. I’m a fan of all 3 guys. I’d be happy with either one. If you’re asking me who I feel most confident in at the next level I’ll say Linderbaum. I don’t think we would draft the player but someone is going to get a day1 starter that plays at a Pro Bowl level.

 

[ghst187]

Give me Kenyon Green and call it a day.

Safe pick.

and he’s a guy who might be able to kick out to OT in a pinch

 

[Pass2Run]

and he’s a guy who might be able to kick out to OT in a pinch

Exactly.

 

[Pass2Run]

I think this is all pretty silly. He can play and his arm size didn't prevent him from being awesome in college. This is the epitome of overanalysis.

HIs PFF grading doesn't show many weaknesses. So, I'm inclined to agree with you.

As someone else pointed out, he could be the safest pick in the whole draft.

 

[visionary]

Johnson or Green over Linderbaum for me