CFZ Basham and Williams Roughing the Passer Flags and Rule

[CWR]

I agree with you on the Williams call, but the call against Basher looked legit to me. I know everyone who's saying it was a BS call would have been screaming, if it had been our QB.

Yeah I wasn't going to die on that hill. I saw why they called it. The Williams call was an over reaction when he clearly pulled up. All this helmet stuff is nonsense. Unless you are spearing the QB, your helmet is on your head, which happens to be attached by your neck and shoulders. I'm not sure how Williams can work around basic anatomy.

 

[America's Cowboy]

I'm acting dumb??? My point is that things like clotheslining used to be let go, but then they started cracking down on it for safety purposes. The same thing applies to spearing and driving the QB to the ground. He's mostly defenseless, being suddenly hit by a man who's usually considerably larger than he is, with a full head of steam. I'm surprised it took as long as it did to start making some of these tackles illegal.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about Dak.

That's what a defensive player is supposed to do: tackle. There is no such thing as a defenseless player on Offense. This is tackle football.

 

[DallasEast]

I'm sure there were 50 other hits just like Sam Williams hit that didn't get called for roughing.

Probably. It would be nice (my opinion only) to compare one of those 50 to the Williams' call.

 

[DogFace]

Leading with the helmet AND driving the QB into the ground. I realize he didn't bury the guy, but it's not a judgement call. He was still on the QB when they hit the ground.

I don’t think he can stop from landing on him after he dove at him. And if you dive your head will lead by default. So I guess the player can’t dive unless he aims to the right or left of the opponents body. Then I’m not sure how he can grab them.

 

[blueblood70]

He didn't drive him into the ground either.

exactly Basham's tackle looked like a form tackle to me i mean whats he supposed to do he finished the tackle as they teach it weight not on the body no extra much of the momentum carry's them to the ground. I mean that total nonsense and why defenders are Gettig so upset over these calls..that example is not how basham finished ie on the body extra weight add per the rule i say those are legal hits sorry but he over protection for the qbs especially out of the pocket on Williams, hes a runner, that's legal... not roughing, i see he had some of the top of his helmet int here as ie spearing but not full top of helmet above facemask, seriously all 4 of these penaltys two holding and these so borderline its unfair to these players feel like they hurt their team with good plays being called like this. I hate this crew same officials as the 9ers game they lie to be on TV.

Ironic they pick up a holding call against us by the broncos on oirWr ..why enough contact says it should have been penalty. I feel some bias from this crew..

 

[America's Cowboy]

I don’t think he can stop from landing on him after he dove at him. And if you dive your head will lead by default. So I guess the player can’t dive unless he aims to the right or left of the opponents body. Then I’m not sure how he can grasp them.

Correct. At that point, it doesn't become tackle football. QBs will know this, thus be able to slide out of the way and continue to make another play. How good will that be for the opposing team playing Defense?

 

[America's Cowboy]

exactly Basham's tackle looked like a form tackle to me i mean whats he supposed to do he finished the tackle as they teach it weight not on the body no extra much of the momentum carry's them to the ground. I mean that total nonsense and why defenders are Gettig so upset over these calls..that example is not how basham finished ie on the body extra weight add per the rule i say those are legal hits sorry but he over protection for the qbs especially out of the pocket on Williams, hes a runner, that's legal... not roughing, i see he had some of the top of his helmet int here as ie spearing but not full top of helmet above facemask, seriously all 4 of these penaltys two holding and these so borderline its unfair to these players feel like they hurt their team with good plays being called like this. I hate this crew same officials as the 9ers game they lie to be on TV.

Ironic they pick up a holding call against us by the broncos on oirWr ..why enough contact says it should have been penalty. I feel some bias from this crew..

Totally agree. What's worse are fellow fans defending those crooked officials.

 

[G2]

There you go.

And, even though I don't like the rule and the QB was 99% off his feet to begin with.

 

[DallasEast]

And, even though I don't like the rule and the QB was 99% off his feet to begin with.

I kinda felt that was what you were saying. Some members are sniping other members for basically saying they see why the refs throw fouls even though they don't agree with thrown laundry.

My main concern is for our players to be knowledgeable about possibly avoiding flags that may be thrown at them. These are concerns that preseason is perfect for helping to instill BEFORE the regular season starts. No one, fan or otherwise, wants to give referees opportunities to kill offensive drives and extend the opponents' offensive drives. Any fan would love having veto power over refs' decisions but that is not how it works in real world games.

Personally, I am waiting for the thread to maybe catch a certain member's attention. He is "very good" at interpreting the NFL rulebook and equally passionate about posting actual counter arguments concerning the accuracy of referees' calls. Then the sniping would finally have a real bonafide and "justified" target.

 

[G2]

I kinda felt that was what you were saying. Some members are sniping other members for basically saying they see why the refs throw fouls even though they don't agree with thrown laundry.

My main concern is for our players to be knowledgeable about possibly avoiding flags that may be thrown at them. These are concerns that preseason is perfect for helping to instill BEFORE the regular season starts. No one, fan or otherwise, wants to give referees opportunities to kill offensive drives and extend the opponents' offensive drives. Any fan would love having veto power over refs' decisions but that is not how it works in real world games.

Personally, I am waiting for the thread to maybe catch a certain member's attention. He is "very good" at interpreting the NFL rulebook and equally passionate about posting actual counter arguments concerning the accuracy of referees' calls. Then the sniping would finally have a real bonafide and "justified" target.

I don't think there's any conspiracy against Dallas, I just think most fans focus more on Dallas. My issue is that the officiating is inconsistent at best and there's too much judgement. Less is more. The QB has been and will always be babied.
There's not even 32 good ones.
Fans have to take a breath and realize this is back ups vs back ups.

 

[phildadon86]

I thought Basham speared him, but Sam's looks clean to me.

Yeah Sams was clean. It isnt his fault the QB left his feet to throw the ball.

So weird.

 

[DallasEast]

I don't think there's any conspiracy against Dallas, I just think most fans focus more on Dallas. My issue is that the officiating is inconsistent at best and there's too much judgement. Less is more. The QB has been and will always be babied.
There's not even 32 good ones.
Fans have to take a breath and realize this is back ups vs back ups.

There is no conspiracy but bias exists in officiating. Intentional and unintentional bias are intertwined in all aspects of human life. All sports, including football, have never been an exception. What should be hoped for is that a referee's personal integrity will always minimize actual bias during games.

NFL quarterbacks must be babied in the present because they do not play in Tom Landry's league or even Jimmy Johnson's league any more. Quarterbacks are the biggest investment towards any chance of a successful season for any club. They wear caution shirts over their jerseys to tell their defense who they are and how they should be handled during practice.

Anyone attending a real practice would be hard pressed to witness a Basham type hit happen. And for the few occasions they do happen, I can assure anyone coaches would be all in the defender's grill for doing so. Starters barely play in preseason games anymore. Starters must have backups going into the regular season. Coaches' jobs depend on their quarterbacks' health. No one is gambling on their quarterbacks bouncing back up from unrestricted tackling in practice.

I understand Basham's frustration after the flag was thrown. He has probably laid out quarterbacks in high school and college the exact same way in both games and practice. He has probably done the same with running backs and receivers until now. Now he must consider tackling quarterbacks is not the exact same as tackling backs and receivers anymore.

 

[TheGoat73]

It may become more exciting if we can somehow keep a lid on penalties this season.

I have a hypothesis that we never will. We are the most loved and most hated team in sports possibly. Officials have a bias, even when trying not to. This results in more penalties for us.

I don’t think there is a conspiracy. I just think human nature is at work. We’ve been on the wrong end of the penalty stats for too too long for it to be just players and coaches.

 

[DallasEast]

I have a hypothesis that we never will. We are the most loved and most hated team in sports possibly. Officials have a bias, even when trying not to. This results in more penalties for us.

I don’t think there is a conspiracy. I just think human nature is at work. We’ve been on the wrong end of the penalty stats for too too long for it to be just players and coaches.

I have felt the same way in the past but started attempting to evaluate possible bias on a penalty-by-penalty basis. That said, it is hard for me to not lump all offensive holding calls together as an example of biased officiating. I can literally focus my attention on the other team's line when they have the ball and spot what I consider is blatant holding. No flags thrown. Then swap my attention to our offensive line and see the same thing.

Flags thrown. In my opinion, fans have a valid argument there is no uniform consistency between calls in separate games or even within individual games. However, I do also believe all teams suffer from some degree of officiating bias in every game.

 

[mrmojo]

Yeah Sams was clean. It isnt his fault the QB left his feet to throw the ball.

So weird.

I just saw the replay again and the QB did leave his feet, how the heck do you control that?? A Qb in a desperate situation can do this all day to draw a penalty.

 

[CWR]

I kinda felt that was what you were saying. Some members are sniping other members for basically saying they see why the refs throw fouls even though they don't agree with thrown laundry.

My main concern is for our players to be knowledgeable about possibly avoiding flags that may be thrown at them. These are concerns that preseason is perfect for helping to instill BEFORE the regular season starts. No one, fan or otherwise, wants to give referees opportunities to kill offensive drives and extend the opponents' offensive drives. Any fan would love having veto power over refs' decisions but that is not how it works in real world games.

Personally, I am waiting for the thread to maybe catch a certain member's attention. He is "very good" at interpreting the NFL rulebook and equally passionate about posting actual counter arguments concerning the accuracy of referees' calls. Then the sniping would finally have a real bonafide and "justified" target.

Where we've really failed in the past is adjusting to the different officiating crews.

Some crew are going to let you bump a little and some crews are calling everything.

That was ABs fatal flaw during the Raiders game. After the first one he should've known they were going to call it. Instead he kept playing exactly the same. I didn't agree with half those PIs, but as a player you have to be aware and as a coach you have to hammer that awareness home.

Unfortunately, officiating in the NFL is far from universal and teams need to adjust to the way different crews call games.

 

[Flamma]

When in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactic against the quarterback, the Referee should always call roughing the passer.

Sorry, but in my opinion this is absurd. This allows for refs to call roughing anytime they want. Which opens up the possibility to tamper with games.

 

[Cmac]

personally,i thought both were horse crap.

Me too......very questionable to me.

 

[CowboyFrog]

They just need to put flags on the QB's...there is no way Williams can do anything other than just let him run around the end on that play. When the QB jumps while your in the act of tackling then the end result will look like you grabbed his knees and slung him to the ground.

 

[mmohican29]

But the crown of his helmet went into his gut. That's spearing.

If you say so (eyeroll).